Plastic petrol tank expansion problem
 

Hi folks

Here in the USA, there has been a rash of bikes with plastic tanks (pretty much all models beginning in 2006, and the S2R in 2005) that are having a problem with the fuel tank swelling.

There are three main symptoms: front pressing against the keyswitch, frame bumpers no longer sit on the frame (are sitting outside the frame or are on the way), and rippling or "waves" in the sides of the tanks.

Ducati (North America) has been replacing the tanks on a one-by-one basis, there has not been enough reports of them to be a recall yet.

The main hypothesis is that the ethanol additive in USA gasoline is the culprit (in almost every state in the US, gasoline is 10% ethanol, commonly called E10). This is not the E85 stuff coming down the pike, but it has been an octane additive for the last 5-10 years. My understanding is that ethanol is not used as a petrol additive in the UK or Europe and I (we) believe that Ducati did not make the tanks on these bikes E10/ethanol-proof.

If you guys are going to be getting ethanol added to your gasoline, you might want to look into getting your tank lined first with something ethanol-proof.

Here are some photos (None are mine, these are collected from a local website)

Bike one: S2R
http://kuixihe.com/zenphoto/zp-core/...l-photography/


Bike two: S2R
Area on tank where the key/latch area has rubber through the paint and is now rubbing through the tank:


Right side ripples and bubbles. Oddly there are no ripples on the left side:


Right side ripples II:


Right side bumper:


Left side bumper:


Cracks/blisters around filler:


Bump on tank:

I have seen this issue mentioned on other forums and I think that this is a problem we are going to be seeing in the next few years. At the moment our petrol mostly has a 5% ethanol limit but there are plans for this to be raised to 10% in 2013. This will put us in the same position as our American cousins with the potential of tanks expanding, seals breaking down and fuel leaking. Aside from the mechanical and safety issues there is also the likelihood that our bikes will lose significant value. I would hope that this has already been considered and a fix is in place.

steel aftermarket tanks now in production from China expected late 2012 for all affected models will solve the issue .

and you reckon Ducati will give them free?! If you're going to spend teh money, and alloy one would be my prerference

Never the long term solution as Alloy tanks will develop there own issues after years of use due to fatigue/vibration

I own a 2006 S2R with 15000 miles on it complete with Plastic Tank, no signs of any distortion, so as mentioned its probably related to the fuels E10 content in the states

below is a link to an excellent article about plastic tank deformation by Gasohol and includes lists of makes and models ,
not just Ducati but also HD,KTM ,Motoguzzi,Apprillia and more reports are now coming in from Europe even some BMW s have been affected.

triumph have stopped using plastic tanks and HD will be switching to steel tanks on 2012 model sporster 1200 sport
the main issue is PA 6 poly propelyne plastic and the primary manufacturer is Acerbis

www.deformedfueltanks.com
__________________
MONSTERMAN

Think I'll see if I can get my brother-in-law to have a read, he was a top researcher/analyst/trouble shooter for BP plastics division before they sold the division and still does the same job now just for the new owners

The problem has been well sussed.

PA6 - the material that the tanks are made from -- absorbs water.

That's pretty much it.

There is no inner liner of the tank, so it is in direct contact with the fuel. Gasoline often has water and sitting atop the engine means the heat creates a nice environment for condensate when it's cooling down.

Add ethanol to your fuel and you learn that it absorbs ambient humidity 10-20x faster than pure gasoline and holds more (E10 holds up to 1% water by volume, whereas pure gasoline only holds about 0.2% water by volume).

Coating the tanks absolutely works and there are many different epoxy based preparations that have been around for a long time. PA6 (aka "Nylon 6" or "polyamide 6") was invented in 1938 so its properties are well known.

not poly propylene, it is nylon. Polyamide (PA) is different from polypropylene (PP).

PP will dissolve in gasoline.

PA is impervious to gasoline (and alcohol) but absorbs water.

Response from Texaco
 

I've contacted some of the main UK fuel providers; BP, Shell, Exxon (Mobil and Esso) and Valero (Texaco) for clarification on what's in our fuel.

I have had a first response back from Valero which I have pasted below. Based on this feedback I will be filling my Sport Classic up with Texaco Super Unleaded this afternoon!

I believe E10 is being fazed in 2013 but E5 is supposed to be available in the UK until 2015 from what I've heard. But I do remember LRP disappeared pretty quickly from UK forecourts. E5 can certainly damage a plastic tank now. E10 can potentially damage carbs if left in in the float bowls and cause seals to fail

I will post any further info as soon as I receive it from the petrol companies. I am going to get my tank lined with Caswells tank liner. There are a number of companies who will do this for you listed on the Caswells UK website.

--------

Thank you for your email dated 14th January 2012 regarding ethanol in fuels.

Ethanol was introduced in the UK in order to meet the RTFO (Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation). In order to meet the obligation biodiesel is blended with diesel and ethanol is blended with petrol. The conversion of the specification for EN228 to include up to 10% Ethanol is currently being reviewed and agreement is not expected until late 2012. Therefore it is unlikely that gasoline with greater concentrations than 5% ethanol will be introduced before this time.

For any petrol containing up to 5% ethanol no additional labelling is required at the pump. If the ethanol content of the petrol is above 5% then there must be clear labelling on the pump stating this (for example E10).

Currently in the UK Texaco Unleaded 95 octane may contain up to 5% ethanol. Texaco Super Unleaded and Supreme Unleaded do not contain ethanol but this may change in the future.

The expectation is that E10 will come onto the UK market late 2012 / early 2013. It is advisable to speak to your car manufacturer if possible if you have any questions regarding the compatibility of your vehicle with ethanol blended petrol.

I hope you will find the information provided useful.

Yours sincerely

UK & Ireland Customer Care Team

i have an s2r 800 2006 an have started to notice some deformation as the rubber spacers no longer fit snug over the frame (in any position).

Rac3r on UKMOC managed to get a free replacement out of Ducati as a 'goodwill gesture' but they would not admit its a problem in the uk yet and claimed that his was the first one they had heard about (which is BS for sure):

http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/s...highlight=tank

Hi funkatronic, do you know if Rac3r's Monster was within warranty? It would be good to know if Ducati UK would entertain replacing a tank on a bike out of warranty.

I expect the problem is now well sorted on the newer models but Monsters and Sport Classics for 05 - 09 models its worrying, considering what's happened in the US.

nope his was 2005 bike and he was 4th owner i believe

dont think it is sorted, there are stories of 2010 bikes in the us starting to show signs of deformation looking th the forums

It will be interesting to see how it's handled in UK and the rest of Europe.

The lawsuit was just finalized here (rather, the settlement) and the result is that Ducati will be "modifying" bikes to allow for the deformation rather than replacing tanks with something that prevents it. This means new mounts, shorter seats and in some cases, a smaller tank so it can expand without hitting anything.

The details of the settlement are here: http://www.girardgibbs.com/ducati-class-notice.pdf

Please note that this settlement affects US owners ONLY, no one else.

Despite my and others' efforts, we were unable to get Ducati to implement some sort of barrier coating as a solution. Here in the US there are epoxy-based coatings available which are designed for use with polyamide plastics such as PA6/Nylon6 and are impervious to fuel or water. Acerbis did some testing on one of them and found it delaminated during testing, but no indication was made of how the tank was prepped or how the solution was prepped. There are literally 100s of people now with coated tanks in the US, some with 2+ years of use and showing no problems.

One thing to note: if you're experiencing tank deformation, you should fully drain your tank, wash it out with a cleanser appropriate for fuel and plastic, and let it sit in a dry place for a few months. It will return to its original shape. When storing your bike, do not leave the tank FULL as you used to with your metal tanks, you should drain it.

The problem is water -- ethanol attracts water and then the combined stuff sinks in the fuel and puts it into contact with the fuel cel wall. Nylon6 absorbs water aggressively to up to 10% by volume.

Here is one company in the US that makes epoxies for polyamides (nylons). I am sure you can find something similar in old Blighty.
http://www.reltekllc.com/adhesives-for-nylon.html

The main issue is getting coverage. We mixed the epoxy with xylene to reduce it. Xylene is compatible with nylons and with adequate air supply, it just evaporates and doesn't affect the epoxy except to thin it during application. Two coats and you're done forever.

If you coat a tank that's had petrol in it without properly prepping -- completely rinsing out the fuel and drying it -- then it will not adhere properly. There are many water-based solvents on the market which are compatible with nylon and will handle the fuel.

that's interesting, its what I have done with my 848.

I'm not one of those who's quick to diss the marque, but, with higher ethanol levels incoming as we read above, it's stupefying that they haven't got a grip on this. They're going to be looking at class actions and mass recalls if they're not careful.

We were discussing this last night at the Essex pub night, and it seems that my Hypermotard would be affected by this.

Thanks to the work by Steve in contacting the petrol companies to find out more about ethanol in the fuel (he's getting far too ahead of himself with only 7 posts!!) at least we know that using a fuel without ethanol in it will help to reduce this, if not stop it completely.

I've been lucky (!) enough to require filling the Hyper every day, so the chance of water ingress is much reduced, but I do store the bike over winter so draining the tank (read: going for a thrash until you run out of petrol ;)) sounds like a good plan before storage!

It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens here in the UK with this.

LOL. Another two posts and I might even be able to do a track day ;-)

I've used Tesco Momentum 99 (advertised as having 5% ethanol) in my SC1000 and the tank has grown by 5-10mm but no other imperfections - so far. It's sickening though to know that it will get worse unless I take action now.

The remaining fuel companies have not written back to me so the best thing we can do right now is use Texaco Premium.

Really helpful advice ducatiz, thanks. I've just spoken to The Motorcycle Restoration Company in Essex and they seal 'loads of tanks' specifically for the reasons we are concerned about. Martin at MRC confirmed exactly what you said ducatiz, regarding preparation. Sounded like he had said it hundreds of times. £150 for a single coat and £205 if it needs a second coat + VAT. I feel sorry for the poor souls who have classic bikes with fiberglass tanks, he has some real sorry stories!

Might as well take my tank off this w/e and let it dry before taking it up to MRC. A distress purchase but I can't wait for Ducati to do something with more ethanol on the way soon.

Just in, response from BP ...

Thank you for your email concerning the fuel sold by BP.

In most regions of the UK our Ultimate Unleaded dos not contain any Ethanol at present (South West UK excluded). This may of course change in the future as the specification allows up to 5%.

Our Regular grade gasoline does contain up to 5% bio ethanol in compliance with EN228 gasoline specification allowance in most regions of the UK.
All BP fuels, regular and BP Ultimate, contain additives which have cleaning and protection properties for the engine. BP Ultimate has been rigorously tested on a wide range of vehicles, covering thousands of miles, in various conditions. Its advanced formula offers a wide range of benefits including better fuel efficiency, more power, better responsiveness, and lower exhaust emissions, all of which gives long term benefit and value to the consumer and their vehicle.

BP does not supply Bio Ethanol as a fuel.

Thank you for taking the time to bring the matter to our attention and for allowing us the opportunity to respond to your concerns at this time.

Kind regards,

Retail Customer Care Team

Email: careline@bp.com
Telephone: 0800 402402
Fax: 0845 082 1706
Internet: www.bp.com

so BP Ultima or whatever it is then, long as you're not in Cornwall

Interesting that they do regional variations on fuel.
I would understand the Scottish Highlands getting something different to Cornwall, but not just the SW getting something different... :confused:

I don't know that they will do anything more. Here in the states, they have taken the stance that the deformation is an acceptable variation in the performance of the part. That's my wording, but that's essentially it. Under the terms of the lawsuit, they'll only replace a tank that has significant deformation, and then only with a tank made of the same stuff.

I wonder what the folks at MRC are using for their coating since this is nylon and not fibreglass. It does not take adhesives well. There are epoxy formulations which are designed for it, but most of the traditional tank coatings will not permanently adhere (like any that are urethane based).

Your best option in my humble opinion is to use one of the epoxy formulations. Prep the tank well, which means dry completely, rinse with cleanser, dry again. And then double-coat using a proper reducer so it gets everywhere inside the tank.

I hope Ducati does something differently in Europe, maybe we in the states can benefit but as it is, the lawsuit did nothing that Ducati wasn't already doing (swapping tanks and modifying bikes).

I found that MWC were recommended on the Caswells website as an approved user/provider of their tank liner product. I have read that Caswells has been used by Ducati owners in the USA but perhaps I need to read up more before selecting a lining product. A rock hard, glass like liner (like Caswells) doesn't quite fit with a tank that can expand and contract. Perhaps sealing the inside will stop the tank changing size?

After what has happened in the states I can't imagine we will fair any better here in the UK. Not good PR for Ducati. We really need a permanent fix for this problem.

For UK Ducati owners I have now had a very helpful response from ESSO ...

-----

Thank you for contactimg Esso Customer Care.
May I assure you that any queries received by Esso are taken most seriously
and followed up as appropriate.

Upon receipt of your e-mail I have contacted our Product Quality Advisor,
please see his comments below.

There is currently no mandatory requirement for renewable fuel (such as
ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol).
Esso super unleaded petrol (branded Esso Energy Supreme) is ethanol free
(except in Devon and Cornwall and shortly Teeside) and we have no intention
in the short or medium term to add ethanol to the majority of our Esso
Energy Supreme.

We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of
ethanol in petrol to use Esso Energy Supreme - providing they don't fill up
in Devon, Cornwall or Teeside.

The 5% limit on ethanol content was endorsed by the The Society of Motor
Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) - the trade body representing the UKs
Motor manufacturers.
They did not believe that E5 would cause any significant issues (that is
not the case with E10).
We are not aware of any issues with Rover derived engines in any make
whether it is TVR, Land Rover or Rovers themselves - as stated earlier E5
is largely the only unleaded available throughout the UK and billions of
litres have been used across the UK and Europe in every petrol engine type
and make.

The proportion of ethanol in 95 grade unleaded in the UK is expected to
increase to 10% in the next few years to meet increasing legislated
renewables content, bringing us into line with both France and Germany.
This level of Ethanol is known to have an adverse impact on fuel tank
sealing in a number of vehicles types, certainly there is discussion on the
various TVR forums on E10 compatibility. Perhaps this is the source of
concern - we reiterate E10 is not currently on sale in the UK as a standard
or super grade.

When E10 does become available, the Government has legislated that super
unleaded petrol must be available at least until 1st January 2014 with no
more than 5% ethanol content.
It remains to be seen whether the Government will decide to extend that
deadline, because the introduction of 10% ethanol in unleaded in the UK has
taken longer than originally envisaged.

Finally, you may be interested in the regulations relating to ethanol in
petrol.
The RTFO was amended in 2009 and is listed under The Renewable Transport
Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2009 Order 843
(http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...roduction/made).
This fulfils the requirements of the EU's Biofuels Directive of 8 May 2003
(http://ec.europa.eu/energy/res/legis...s/en_final.pdf),
and Directive 2009/28/EC of 23rd April 2009
(http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...16:0062:EN:PDF), which promoted the use of energy from renewable sources.

Yours sincerely,

Nice work again Steve ... on a roll!
I just tidied the links up in your post so they work.

Thanks Anotonye,

This is the link to Caswells Europe and the product description

http://www.caswelleurope.co.uk/gastank.htm

£45 for the kit for two tanks but from what I've read you'd use all of it on a Ducati plastic tank anyway. Probably worth getting a borescope for £20 off eBay to check coverage inside the tank as well. I've not looked into the prep/cleaner as I think I'll probably go to MRC.

Epoxy sealers do not cure "rock hard" they actually remain somewhat flexible and the layer is very thin.

The only time I would be concerned about the flexibility vs the tank would be in a crash situation where the tank surface could change drastically. I'd assume failure of the liner in that situation. The good news is that the same procedure can be re-done if the liner develops a split or crack, and coated over. Epoxy is an adhesive and will stick to itself without much issue. You would just need to evaluate the damage and might find a tank replacement is warranted anyhow.


I don't know your laws, here the lawsuit could have progressed to a better solution but as you might imagine, the attorneys running it aren't really interested in a solution, they just want to get paid.

Thanks ducatiz, good to know the sealer can flex.

I'm sure my tank is actually shrinking back down a little. I keep my bike in the dinning room next to the radiator which might help! Quite a dry atmosphere.

Anyway, tank off at the weekend and I'll measure it so I can track if it changes size.

I stumbled across his company in Japan make to very nice 'factory' looking alloy tanks for Ducati Monster and Superbike models ...

http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html

Expensive at £1,400+ but they look like a Ducati Course product.

I got an eMail back from Shell this morning in answer to the question of ethanol in their UK petrol (is ethanol in both standard 95 and high octane VPower versions of their petrol?).

Unfortunately the email has a confidentiality clause so I cant repeat its content without risk of getting my knuckles rapped :-(

At least we know the facts. Any UK petrol provider can or will use up to 5% ethanol in any of their petrol products at any time but the high octane versions of Texaco, Esso and BP don't currently contain ethanol. Except for Esso in Devon, Cornwall and Teeside and BP in the South West.

Ducati are now using a different plastic on bikes manufactured in Thailand PEX, talking to dealer here only Italian made models with PA6 tanks affected by gasohol so far and Thailand has 10% gasohol content in most fuels
experience here over last 4 years is that it also damages fuel lines , injectors , fuel filters etc etc even on new GASOHOL vehicles .
,my pal eddie has 2 BMWs RT and 1000rr both ethanol damaged fuel systems ,