New regs for 2010
 

We are approaching the last races at Cadwell for 2009. I believe within the DD community that races, not the ones that don't have their backside in the saddle going through paddock hill. ;)

We need to start brainstorming tyres and allowances/acceptances throughout the machine.

These bikes are knocking on in years and parts are drying up which makes parts that are available costly and then bidding against racer. There can only be one winner.

So at this early juncture I feel the technically minded amongst us and the not so who might have a thought and not know how to phrase it.

We ought to add to this thread the way forward, ZR tyres etc more choice of vendors. We all know its not Pirelli making us use HR. But there are a host of other issues so lets collate them and get them in the mixing pot early, instead of 2 weeks before next season race start.

Good idea on the technical side, think Skids may be covering off most of that side, as for the tyres, that is a bit of a sticky problem(no pun intended)
the biggest problem there is having a tyre that is both good in the dry and be able to be used in the wet, but this being the biggest problem, we have to have a letter of suitability from the manufacturer.
I am not sure what the state of play on tyres for next season is, drop a pm to Gordon Parkeras he id the DD MT member.

One thing to remember when voicing ideas for DD is that the "B" is entry level/cheap racing.


Chris:burn:

We keep hearing of this letter, has anyone actually seen it?
Scan it and show it to the members.

You know I never thought of that and a very good idea.

Come October the 5th the day after the last race of the season start sending in your ideas there is a 4 week window to send ideas /proposals/etc to desmodue@ducatisportingclub.com, these will automatically go to the members of the RC including the Riders reps. These ideas will then be looked at and worthwhile ones followed up on.

Last year I sent in loads of suggestions with my reasons and information to suoport them, many of which were taken up.

One of my views is if you can't Police it the rule can prove to be worthless
Issues on the table for next years rule book should include among them

Tyres
Class B pistons
Class B ignition modules
Rider eligability for each class
Reinstating the rule allowing the use of Carburetors on Class A bikes

If you think a rule is unfair/incorrect please let us know and it can be looked at

2.1.9 Changes to these Rules

It is the intention that the rules should be fixed no later than the 1st of March each year.

All riders are to be given the opportunity to input to the following seasons rules, after the finish of the last race of the year and the 5th of November of that year.

Rules should be sorted out by Christmas at the latest. Sending out the regs by March is not the way to go about things. Why is it all other race series know excatly the rules for the following season, well in advance of the season actually starting.
Rant over, I'll get my coat.

QUOTE=skidlids]Come October the 5th the day after the last race of the season start sending in your ideas there is a 4 week window to send ideas /proposals/etc to desmodue@ducatisportingclub.com, these will automatically go to the members of the RC including the Riders reps. These ideas will then be looked at and worthwhile ones followed up on.

Last year I sent in loads of suggestions with my reasons and information to suoport them, many of which were taken up.

One of my views is if you can't Police it the rule can prove to be worthless
Issues on the table for next years rule book should include among them

Tyres
Class B pistons
Class B ignition modules
Rider eligability for each class
Reinstating the rule allowing the use of Carburetors on Class A bikes

If you think a rule is unfair/incorrect please let us know and it can be looked at

2.1.9 Changes to these Rules

It is the intention that the rules should be fixed no later than the 1st of March each year.

All riders are to be given the opportunity to input to the following seasons rules, after the finish of the last race of the year and the 5th of November of that year.[/quote]

Hear, hear. One vote here for keeping Class B changes to an absolute minimum in the interests of existing riders not wanting to spend ££ over the winter to remain competitive. Maybe, to help with purchase and investment decisions, the rules could include a future year when it is envisgaed that Class B in its present form will cease to exist and be replaced by a new Class using 620's or whatever. Unless several years notice are given, it will never be the right time to introduce significant change.

Oh, and I like the current tyres...

Well put sir!

Always open to suggestions, but I would think that there is not a lot that needs doing to the Current Class B rules for 2010.

The question of how long these bikes can be kept on track is an interesting one. From memory I think we have had only 1 engine blow up since the start of the series - they are in that low level of tune that they are not stressed.

Perhaps it may be an idea to say that the existing 583 bikes will be raced for 2010/2011 and then retired - but all concerned would have to realise that at the end of 2011 the bikes would probably be worthless.

If in 2011/2012 there was a move to make Class A the new novice class - then in theory we would need to look at Class C. This has been mooted before and the obvious choice might be to introduce the 696 Monster as the class machine. With them having been on the market for a couple of years there should be a supply of 2nd hand machines at reasonable cost and people can have time to buy and prep them.

I rode one at Cadwell on the trackday and it was a super machine and in fact more fun than the 1100S.

Anyway suggestions greatfully received and will be reviewed after the last race.

I think you are a bit out of touch with engine blow ups Chris! Sam west has blown at least 2 & a couple of 620 have let go, having said that in general they are very reliable.

No reason why they shouldn't be still racing in fifty years time plenty of bikes that age still on track that are no were near as good as our little Desmos.

Here are some of the dates of last years process

Version 1 First draft 22/10/08
version 2 second go 3/11/08
Version 3 Third attempt 25/11/08
Version 3.1 5/12/08
Version 3.2 19/12/08

The reason for the March date is that the DD rule book also incorporates rules from the ACU handbook and this is not issued until Feb/March time
Ideally next years versions will cut these out, such things as number and background sizes and Noise limits
The Phase "to comply with current ACU regulations" should surfice

Kev,

No reason why those dates aren't achievable.

Chris

From reading on the boards, it seems that the issue of CDI boxes (specifically the status of the Ducati Performance CDI units) needs to be addressed.

Given that the series aim is to keep it as cheap as possible and the cost of those things, I personally think they should be specifically excluded and locked to the standard part specified by oem part number.

If people are already running them then there looks like a buoyant market for them on ebay, so selling them on and replacing with standard units shouldn't be a problem?

My worry is that if this rule is left untouched or removed (ie, not made more specific) then it could open things up to custom CDI boxes and more expense - and that's the preserve of the Class A bikes!

Does that seem sensible?

I agree with Kev and Chris that the rule changes MUST be released as soon as possible. There's no reason why we can't have a review of the rules for this year and any problems with them that have arisen over this season and make some suggested amendments before the end of Oct as suggested. This gives time to discuss/vote/whatever before locking down early in the new year. Any changes that come out of the ACU rules are not going to be specific enough to warrant any kind of major headaches with either Class A or B.

So the question is, does anything need changing? In my view no! Tyres seem to be a problem but i'm sure a phone call made by the right person would sort that. The RC could then issue a set of rules and all entrants must also abide with the ACU rules. Can't see a problem. If you don't like em, don't race in that series! But i forgot we've then gotta spend the next 5 months arguing about wether the tyres are any good, blah blah blah. Someone make the rules, lets build our bikes to them and go and race! And it could all be sorted by Christmas!

If the cause of the engine failures was due to over-revving then perhaps excluding non-original ignition boxes might help engine life.

It appears to me that at the moment Class B is more buoyant than Class A and that perhaps a phasing out of the current class A bikes for a new formula may be the way forward.

Given the success of standard Class B engines of whatever age, would a 900ss class with no mods other than cans and suspension give the more commited racers a class with the 'prestige' and performance they need without loosing the DD character. Keeping mods to a minimum would also keep the budget racing tag.
I'm not an expert but need 900ss's be more expensive to maintain than 600ss's.

I can see the 696 Monster as the alternative to this but initial outlay may still be prohibitive whilst 900ss's seem to be fairly cheap and easy to come by.

At one time on this forum a std. 748 class was muted as a possibility also!

Purely from a spectators point of view that would look good IMHO.

Foggie lookie likies V Corser V Chili V Whitham V Reynolds V Mackenzie V Xaus V Casoli V Easton V Bostrom V Hodgeson V Toseland V Walker V Emmet V Hislop V Bayliss.....

aaahhh the nostalgia:)

Good many bikes about at a reasonable price.

Ray

Andy the problem with the tyres is the availability, one company appears to have the monopoly on supply.

Lets go ZR and they are available from anywhere.

Possibly a few things need changing

Entrants were saying they were unable to buy new Standard pistons. i'm not sure if this applies to all 583s or just the older pre 99 ones, ie bikes between 11 and 15 years old (they have got 5 years older over the years DD has been running)
Sam west and Dallas seem to get along fine with the newer 1999 to 2001 engines and spares may be more readily available for these 8 to 10 year old engines

So is the lack of availability of new piston for Class B bikes an issue that needs to be researched and alternatives looked at, If so this takes time

Igniter Box's such as AL-9000s ban there use or allow them and come up with wording that stops people using igniters that have programable advance curves.
Is the current rule a gray area of are people just bending the existing rule to suit them.

Rider eligability for Class B, I have heard several comments this year refering to how long some Class B riders have been campaigning in that Class and how they should move on.
Again is this a issue with the majority or a minority

The problem with the ZR rated tyre is that Pirelli have specifically stated that the bikes are not heavy enought and dont have enough power to get them up to required operating temperatures and as such wont endorse them for the series.

That is not the case for the HR rated tyre.

This is important because it is the racers necks on the line with this and saftey is important.

Supply of the HR rated Rosso shouldn't be a problem next year, as I currently understand it.

Before anyone starts on it I am not aware of any good reason to move away from Pirelli tyres!

In part I was suggesting the 696 from the point of view that it is a current bike, as the 620 was when we started 5 years ago!

The 900s haven't been in production from proabaly 6/7 years now and I dont know what parts supply is like. What we do have is a question of power in that my old one was good for 75bhp on the road, probably more on the track. I think that Pirelli would be looking at Diablo 3s and wets for that sort of power - big increase in cost, etc. Also what happens when it is ****ing down and someone trys to go out on Diablo 3s - that could get dangerous?

4 valve race series is a possibility, we looked at thing in 2006/7. Biggest thing is cost control, even if you used Superstock/proddy racing rules and how do you stop cheating to obtain power - all very difficult and would need a lot of protests to keep a lid on it.

If we were to look at a 4 valve series it would require 25 people to commit up front and I suppose we would look at the 749 rather than the 748 to keep it reasonably current.

Although on the Pirelli.com website there is still no mention of H rated Rosso's
And I do find it strange tha Pirelli endorsed the use of Z rated tyres in 2005 and 2006 for the Desmo Due series if they now deem them unsuitable

That may not be a bad thing if that 'monopoly' enables said company to afford to be present at every round of the championship! I think the convenience of not having to worry about buying and bringing tyres (and maybe changing equipment) easily outweighs the small additional cost for the tyres.

We tried all sorts of things over the winter & trackdays of 2005/06.

We found the ZR tyres took longer to warm up which is probably a benefit in DD, especially Class A as I now find the HR tyres go-off quickly on the 620's. Kyle found them pretty good too, looking at some of his old lap times. We find the HR's very good at their first meeting and not-so-good at their second meeting and I'm sure Tim will confirm this too. I remember buying Skids old tyres and winning races on the Class B bike though.




I've got Dialbo corsa's on my 900ssie and its an ideal step-up, faster, better suspension and more grip.....

900ssie looks good with the DD bodywork too ;)

I have always seen FWR as a cheap place for tyres and this is there current prices on H rated Diablos. http://www.fwr.co.uk/pirellit.htm#diablo
110/70H17 - £69.00
120/60H17 - £69.00
150/60H17 - £95.00
160/60H17 - £99.00

There is no 120/70H17 front listed so based on a 60 profile front a pair will cost £168 so not as cheap as Holbeach

a pair of ZR rtaed is £181
120/70 ZR17 - £82.00
160/60 ZR17 - £99.00

I think the deal we get along with the support in the paddock and several tyres as raffle prizes is a pretty decent deal

Just my tuppenth worth on the CDi boxes. As i understood them they had a modded curve in but not necessarily for more power. The ultimate advance needs to be kept in check to enable them to run on any fuel and Ducati know this.
I've certainly seen no advantage of note in using them. What they did/do give was/is a monetry saving in replacing the stock boxes should they fail. The DP items are cheaper, as a pair, than buying stock parts. This has a been a reason that i know of in two cases where they have been used.

There's more adjustment to be had on the pickups and you'd never police that, so for what it's worth, i think you'll be wasting time, effort and energy trying to police the DP igniter boxes.......

In the scheme of things is this such a big problem!

Look after said engine, parts are out there you've just gotta look. I don't need to tell you that racing isn't cheap, buy another engine or look after the one you've got! These little engines are prehistoric, which can be a good or a bad thing.

Mmmm
 

Should we concentrate on policing adjusted pick-ups then?????!!!!!

Is adjusting the pick-ups illegal??

Whats a Pick-up????

Used by old men to get women? :D

It's like a van with an open loading area, or it could be one of those things they have on electrical guitars

I think ALL suggestions should be made public. I'm not necessarily saying that they should all be debated in public but that they should be published with details of whether they will be taken up and if not why not. I think this will save time for eveybody involved, e.g. the same suggestion sent by several members. There would be one central place, on the forum, where they can be referenced.

Can I put mine in now please:

1) A vote on how amount of rounds for DD. Why? Two main reasons: (a)The whole idea of DD is that it is meant to be 'budget' racing. For instance, within the tyre debate the issue of 'cost' is quoted constantly yet this year there were 9 rounds in the calendar. If the series were to reduce the amount of rounds, say to 6 or 7 rounds there would be a big cost saving which would negate the tyre costs. 6 quality rounds between, say, April at the earliest and September at the latest? operative phrase here: Quality not Quantity :-) (b) There would also be more chance of full grids as, maybe, more people would be inclined to do more rounds.

2) Once New Era have published available dates DD'ers should get a vote about where they go I'm sure this was done a couple of years back.

All signed up DD'ers should be given ample chance to vote. If they don't bother then they have no argument if there is something they don't like.

Anyway that's my tuppence worth....over and out :-)

For me it is, I want to shop around for the best deal. I also like to fit and balance my own boots, another cost saving.

As Tim has not yet posted, I can confirm with Andy that after one race let alone one full meeting the HR Diablo's on a 620 have lost there initial grip and start to slide noticably.
Apart from that they are a good reliable and consistant tyre.


Chris:burn:

The two flywheel pickups for the ignition triggers are on a slotted bracket. you can get about 8 degrees of advance on there.......if you wanted ;)
In short, realistically, no you couldn't police it. You can move them 2 degrees tightening the things up.
It's a red herring that would take up valuable time/resource IMO.

Neil,

Well put and it would require a protest and an engine strip to prove.

Chris

i agree 100% with all above as nelly knows what he is talking about rather than some other people that frequent this forum

A strobe lamp would do. :D

That isn't the issue, if adjustment is there thats why its slotted but that is only for the static/idle advance the igniters provide the advance over 3k, and as Nelly says there is no advantage with them.

Run too much advance with incorrect RON fuel and it will pink like hell and get you nowhere.

Yeh but....
 

If we only ever spoke about what we knew about the world would be a very quiet place....

we'd never learn anything new...

or have anything to whine about....

or laugh about....

As per Skids post re pistons.

I looked into this and they were £300 for 2..
But I understand now you have to buy the cylinders ?

Mine after 2008 were well worn and scored and when measured were well
under tolerance.

JE pistons could be a option as they make 4 off to order.
and half the price :)

Also for next season The Scruts will be hot on shark fins and they will need
to be like the one Chaz had made up ( I got pulled up on mine at CC and bernie explained to me and showed me Chaz's template)

Thanks for my shiney new one Chaz :)

Yeah, but to what purpose. The facility is there, as standard, to adjust the ignition advance/retard. One DD'er could argue they had no idea.... plausible. The other could argue that having measured the TDC point the stock markings are out. Very plausible.
The pickups are the trigger for the CDi's. Move the plate 2 degress and the whole curve is moved 2 degrees. The ignitors simply carry the curve data. There's your advance.....

Why then would you go on a mass witch hunt for the either the DP ignitors or altered pick up positions?? It serves no purpose
The nett results of any tweaks to the ignition are neither here nor there.

IMO, the only mods worth any significant gain are flywheels, pistons and heads. These are easy spots and the tests are well known. Why spend 50 quid on a protest and waste the time of the officials chasing pickup positions when you'd get more advantage from a wearing a slicker helmet or tucking your elbows in a bit tighter.......
It's a waste of resource and time. The DD is supposed to be a simple series.

Never mind all this tech talk. MORE LAPS PER RACE PLEASE. 8 seems to be over so quickly or is that just me being a slow starter. LOL

Keep it as cheap and easy as possible.