Hottrax Info on their site
 

Intresting on the Hottrax site:

http://www.hottrax-motorsport.co.uk/...Calstrucv5.pdf

Notice Brands says Sat only 2 races, no Sun. So one day event if you dont do the Fri testing ? Same with Mallory & Oulton. Home for Sunday.

2011 Format:

http://www.hottrax-motorsport.co.uk/...ntFormatV1.pdf

I cant see any entry forms yet but I'm not sure if they will go up on the New Era site for us or Hottrax ?


Craig

It seems we have a new series name as well.

Desmo Duo???

Typo, or disinterest?

Discuss.

I wont be attending may of the test days and I am sure by the time I arrive on a Friday eve I will be in the furthest corner of the paddock. I do look forward to the sat sun meets, the sat only is a bit of a bummer. anyway, roll on the Desmo Duo!

No doubt it will be a typo, they even think Mallory is in Lincolnshire :lol:


Chris:burn:

£200 entry fee for one days racing WTF!

Though it does work out about the same spread over the year (and most of paid £175 for 1 day events last year to a company that basically went bust from it).

I'm still more concerned about the 2-day/3race events when the first race becomes our qualifying....

Is there no timed qualifying prior to race 1 of 3 race meeting Ron?

I see the Cadwell date has changed.......That's Popham Mega Meet weekend AGAIN now :(

Yes, but it only gives (potentally) the grid for non-championship race #1, and the finishing position from that gives qualifying for the two championship races. It hasn't been made official, but if you follow the link they mention it for other classes and KeV has mentioned it. I'm dead set against it.

Hmm, I think I am with you there Jolley. Qualifying is qualifying and Non championship race is just that, non championship.

I'm trying to keep up but I really haven't got a clue what's going on any more!

ha ha cost again!!!

I thought when its 3 races we have free practice, timed practice, qually race then 2 championship races

whats the new date for cadwell then?

Don't worry about it. Same for everyone. :D

just enter and we'll see you on the grid...the only thing you need to know is 'go go go!' :lol:

neil i thought you would have known about the tyres being a DUNLOP :lol:

All as per Kev Ellis' e-mail. Only thing is tyres to be sorted, decision on Spa/Mallory, and clarification on how we are dealing with 3 race weekends.

I'm told Patience is a virtue

I've been busy on the phone and internet today trying to close out the last few remaining gray areas

Tyres is done and dusted, draft email written and once I have read through it again and added the last bit of the jigsaw I should be emailing it out tomorrow evening.
Spa-hoping on news from the organisers tomorrow, they now know we have enough riders saying they will do it to fill 1/3 of the grid, so lets hope the other groups can say the same.

As for the Qualifier race. I have read several posts on this, objections are in the minority but here is my view on it taking into account some of the points made in the postings

People that may benefit are those prepared to take the risks and if the people that normally push hard in a timed practice session don't want to take the risks in a qualifying race to get as far up the grid as they could then they may find a few different people in front of them on the grid at two of the meetings.

We can't have 3 point scoring races in one weekend as some people may want to miss that round for one reason or another and elect to drop the two races from their points scoring.

If both races on Saturday were point scoring what would that make Sunday's race, if its non championship then from the comments it looks like people won't take risks. So does that mean they wouldn't take part in it, or would they just go out and not take any risks which as mentioned isn't great racing.
By having the first of the 3 races as a qualifier it does make it part of the championship and therefore adds value to all 3 races. A race not linked to the championship offers little value

In normal quallifying many riders are out there with no idea how well they are doing and no idea where they are going to end up on the grid, sometimes having their best lap ruined by coming across someone going slower just where they didn't need to.

For many a timed practice/qualifying can be a lottery and at the end of it they have no idea where they qualified until they see the timing sheet

It's not a radical idea, other clubs have been doing it for years and even last year BSB adopted a system where the grid for the second race is based on what went on in race 1.
Other forms of international racing even reverse the front couple of rows for the second race based on the finishing order of the first race.

Thankfully NGRRC didn't make a bid (they haven't the space) for the DD series, with a timed practice, one qualifier race a day and one points race a day we would have had to turn down the offer dispite the excellent range of tracks they have to offer as many wouldn't have liked the format

New user name then,
"super soft and sticky feckin fast even in the wet H rated"
:lol:

One point at a Time:
1)As for the Qualifier race. I have read several posts on this, objections are in the minority but here is my view on it taking into account some of the points made in the postings
- How about a vote? Am I a minority?

2)People that may benefit are those prepared to take the risks and if the people that normally push hard in a timed practice session don't want to take the risks in a qualifying race to get as far up the grid as they could then they may find a few different people in front of them on the grid at two of the meetings.
- Those pushing hard (or those that are quick) in a timed round will generally go just as well in the race. It is more about not wanting to damage your championship races by making sure you finish. I see this as ruining the first (qualifying race) as you will have less overtaking because people want to make it to the end. If the following grids were based upon fastest laps from the race it might be a little fairer on anyone that has an off or a mechanical problem (how unfair would it be if someone came off in front of you that you couldn't avoid and you got a DNF?).

3) We can't have 3 point scoring races in one weekend as some people may want to miss that round for one reason or another and elect to drop the two races from their points scoring.
- So, leave it as just a race (the non-points scoring races last year were still fun), or compromise by making qualifying on best lap times from that race. If someone thinks they are going to make up a lot of places in a race then their laps will be faster (have better lap times) and still improve their qualifying.... but at least if they couldn't finish the race their weekend wouldn't be ruined.

4) If both races on Saturday were point scoring what would that make Sunday's race, if its non championship then from the comments it looks like people won't take risks. So does that mean they wouldn't take part in it, or would they just go out and not take any risks which as mentioned isn't great racing.
By having the first of the 3 races as a qualifier it does make it part of the championship and therefore adds value to all 3 races. A race not linked to the championship offers little value
- I agree the championship races should be last. Are you saying that if the first race is non-championship that we won't be racing eachother though?.... come on!! As soon as the lights go out we are trying to prove a point..... unless of course we are worried about the fact we HAVE to finish.

5) In normal quallifying many riders are out there with no idea how well they are doing and no idea where they are going to end up on the grid, sometimes having their best lap ruined by coming across someone going slower just where they didn't need to.
- Seriously, we all have some idea (within about 4 places) where we are going to come. Even if your best lap is compromised, your second best lap will put you within a place or two of where you would have been.... but someone falling at a hairpin in front of you and taking you out in a Qualifying race would put you at the back. I think it will punish more than it rewards.... and the punishment would be about 20 more places than any reward.

6)It's not a radical idea, other clubs have been doing it for years and even last year BSB adopted a system where the grid for the second race is based on what went on in race 1.
Other forms of international racing even reverse the front couple of rows for the second race based on the finishing order of the first race.
- But we are not using a championship race to determine a championship grid, we are using a non-championship race to determine a championship grid. If a championship race is determining the grid the reward for risk taking is two-fold, being both better points in that race and a better start to the next. We can only really lose. I would be interested to see who made up the most places in any single race last year. I would be surprised if anyone made up more than 7 places from grid position to finish position last year (on average Alan and Matt Lawson probably had the best record for consistently improving, even then it was normally only by a place or two), but plenty would have lost 15+ places from not finishing.

7) Thankfully NGRRC didn't make a bid (they haven't the space) for the DD series, with a timed practice, one qualifier race a day and one points race a day we would have had to turn down the offer dispite the excellent range of tracks they have to offer as many wouldn't have liked the format.
- I think you have done a sterling job and agreed a top format in terms of the sessions and the track time and the tracks and the price. I'm not taking anything away from that. Everything is just about perfect. I just hate this for all of the reasons stated above.

Maybe a vote on the 2-day/3-race format:
1) 1st race is non-championship, all 3 grids from Qualifying.
2) 1st Race is a Qualifying race to determine grids from finishing position.
3) 1st Race is a Qualifying race to determine grids from best lap.

If I lose the vote I will go with whichever the majority choose.

I've found something to agree with Ron on!!

Either the first race should be non championship, or it should be qualifying from fastest lap. NOT from finishing position.

But then I guess i'm in the minority here.

We both agree you were quicker than me (in the dry).

I think it will be a fairly even split between those that qualify well and those that do not, with maybe some not so good qualifiers still voting against race place qualifying because they can see the potential for disaster outweighs any possible gains. Qualifying is part of racing, and I don't think our qualifying strategy should change just for the odd round (this is only 3 race events, with the others remaining pure qualifying as before). Change is good, but not at the expense of potentially handing out a massive handicap as the result of a silly mistake that might not even be of their own doing.

I'd vote for a qually race; it adds a reason to do it and makes it more exciting than just an allcomers type race...and how many went in allcomers with a 'do a few laps, its like practice' approach then found themselves racing anyway, eh Craig ;) :lol:

its also new and fresh for DD

Nothing wrong with a qualifying race.

If you're going to push hard in qualifying then you'll push just as hard in a race. Depends what kind of character you are and how confident you are in your ability to keep it upright.

If you're goint to crash in qualifying then you're just as likely to crash or crash into someone else in a qually race. The difference is that if you crash on the 7th lap of normal timed qualifying, that you'll still have a chance to be on pole.

That's why it should DEFINITELY be taken from the fastest lap that you post in the qually race and not the finishing position.You'll get unfairly punished if it's based on race positions. That's a recipe for a fast rider having to batter past slower riders from the back of the grid with all the associated gubbins that may entail.

Great idea, just needs that minor revision to make it a worthwhile addition to the weekend.

I reckon that championship race grid positions should be determined by length of time in DD.
That should make it harder for the johnny-come-lately trophy hunters.....

You don't need that, Paul. You're more than capable of hunting your own trophy :)

And in case that's as amibiguous as it seems on re-reading it, I mean that you're as fast as anyone on your day. If you're not trying to detach parts of yourself in ever increasingly inventive ways that is.;)

New format + new tyres = new opportunities to meet nice people in orange :D

May be a silly question but :
If the championship race grid position is determined by the qualifying race , how is the qualifying grid determined - by race number :D ? fastest warm up? Rolling start ?

By Qualifying ;) (before the Qualifying race!!)

By Qualifying ;) (before the Qualifying race!!)

Phil... And just to confuse you, most rounds will be Qualifying from a qualifying session before the two championship races. The above is just for 2-day/3race weekends.

I read it and figured it that way too, Ron.

Seems a bit bonkers....

don't worry about Phil, Craig and I will be looking out for him, you know making sure he understands its customary to wait 5 minutes after last call for practice, count to three after the lights go out...you know stuff like that ;) :lol:

Yep I've been to Paul and Craig's school of bike racing :)

Don't give a toss how qually and grid position are decided as long as I have a laugh.

Hottrax will be great till you've paid up then wont give a flying feck, and if bad fortune strikes, getting a refund will be hilarious.

The point is that I (the minority) wouldn't be having quite so much of a laugh if I was starting at the back due to a mistake in a qualifying race.

No refunds are available at all... Stated clearly on their website. If that is what they have to do to stay in business, then that is what they have to do. Not a big deal anyway, because their discounts for paying up front are less than 1 race entry... So just pay a race at a time and you would never be more that 1 race entry out of pocket if the worst were to happen.

[quote=Jolley]The point is that I (the minority) wouldn't be having quite so much of a laugh if I was starting at the back due to a mistake in a qualifying race.

Too serious Ron!
I know we all want to do well and obviously it is competitive but surely the main objective is to have fun with like minded riders/racers.. A bit like a quick TD with some mates and try to beat them... Not WSBK.
Even I had to take stock of how my mind was starting to focus almost entirely on winning or finishing high up etc.

However, I agree with you on the qualifying and think if it has to be during the Non points scoring race which some peeps may not want to do (I and many others didn't do all the Saturday races last year). Then it should be on the fastest lap of that race and not on the race result.

Yep +1 on this it should be fastest lap

At the end of the day, I'm there to do as well as I can. I did that last year, and next year will be the same. I have fun out there, and my non-finishes at Mallory and Pembrey didn't cause me to spit any dummies... Im pretty laid back, and realize it isn't the end of the world. However, if someone else caused me to qualify at the back due to a silly mistake that resulted in a coming together, then I know I'd be more than a bit annoyed... And I don't think there are many people that wouldn't. We are all competetive or we would not be racing, and if it knocks me from 3rd to last or 10th to last makes no difference. Im honest enough to know right now that if it happened it would annoy me. However, that same incident would be laughed off as just one of those things if the consequences were not quite so disasterous. Why introduce a rule that could potentially lead to bad feeling? This puts more consequence on a silly mistake, so the rule would be making things more serious than a normal laid back Fastest Lap style Qualifying.

By the way, I'll happily go with whatever is decided. I just thought it was worth thinking about the potential fall out of the rule and ironing out the problems now.

So, I vote for a qually race, using your fastest lap.

Likewise

Craig

After my grass tracking at Cadwell last year - I'm only going to be paying for a race at a time just in case the same happens again!