Desmo Due 2012...discuss
 

possibly been discussed at length in the past, but just wondered whether anyone else feels that a change to the DD format in 2012 might be a good thing?

In December after being told by my mate Jolley how his bike was getting prepped I began thinking that I should have a go at that. For a few minutes I thought about Class A but after looking at the numbers I was soon put off.

I realise there are riders out there with class A bikes loving their racing and it is not my job to tell anyone how to run this series but I am just thinking out loud here. It is clear that the Class A numbers are dwindling and at the moment there is a mass of Class B and a handful of class A. Perhaps it would be a good idea to see a different class A next year?

I for one would be all over a 748 cup, with a limit to the bhp and a minimum weight. Great bikes, can be bought for £2k, that were actually built with racing in mind, not for vertically challenged people (SS) or posing in the city (m600)! Im only joking I love my SS!

How about a Monster 695/696 class as this is still in production Ducati may take more interest?

If this is not up for discussion then cool I will shut up and get my coat, but I think if it is then it would be good to get it out in the open and sorted early enough so that Class A people could swap their engines/sell their bikes and we could attract new comers to the "Premier Class"!


Hugh

Old (no longer in production) bikes put us in no better place than we are now.

I would be tempted to go with a 696 class to bring it up to date and relevant.

The problem is there are so many possible options that the discussion could go on for a long time.

I think the two key questions are

what would get class B guys to move up?

what would experienced people be looking for coming into class A?


Would a 750\800 monster that could slot into other classes (streetfighter / mini twin) be a good choice?

But better wait for an experienced guy to answer

Mark
:)

what stops me going into class A is the issues with ECU I've seen. I dont have much idea mechanically so fixing anything myself is difficult, and I doint have £800 to chuck at a Nemesis to make sure the ECU wont fail

Otherwise, if I race next year I'd be very tempted to trade up

Re another class, 748 a great idea but service & maintenance I reckon would be a lot higher, and not sure where you shop if you can pick one up ok for racing for 2k ;)

to me it doesnt seem broke really, grids are full at most rounds and races close, obviously except A....which is the point I know...

Last March I bought a 748 with an 853 conversion, which wouldnt be good in this instance, but that came with mag wheels and 20k on the clock. I paid £2100 for it. I rode it around London last summer.... murdered it on the track a few days and it was perfect. Sold it on at the end of the year for the same money.

A grid full of 748s would be a lovely thing to see and hear.....
That said a 696 or similar would be good to make the series a little more modern. It wouldnt be as budget but lots of DD peeps have much more expensive road bikes.

I know I could race a 748 in another series but I get so confused with the rules for multi bike classes that I get put off trying to work out whats in and out. A one make series is so much easier!

Right now if I won the lottery or managed to save A LOT I will be signing up for the 848 series next year, unless there is another DD alternative.

Paul,
I bought a spare new virgin ECU for £250 (will work with any clock and key). Since starting racing in July 2009 the bike has never failed to start and never missed a beat. Even after those 2 crashes at Mallory :mad: it still ran.
How many B bikes can claim that?

748 for 2k ? plus 750-1k for suspension, racing kills dry clutches, water cooled :eek:
Another 40 bhp on road tyres in the wet. :o
Cheaper option is an 800 engine and do mini twins.

Limit the number of seasons you can stay in class B so people have to move up.

Hey at the rate your improving I'm glad yer not in class A yet

me too - and you got a mega bargain there mush

what stops me going into class A is the issues with ECU I've seen. I dont have much idea mechanically so fixing anything myself is difficult, and I doint have £800 to chuck at a Nemesis to make sure the ECU wont fail

Otherwise, if I race next year I'd be very tempted to trade up


No problems with ecu's now Paul as we have the technology to get into them can get rid of code no need to match to clocks don't need coded key, can even reprogram so no need for a power comander, much cheaper than a Nemesis, much less fiddling about than carbs.

interesting my view is so far out from reality, as IO thought it was rockind-horse non nmatched ecu or mega expensive replacement. I have seen a few go, or at least thats what peolpe said, last year and without it matching the cloks kaput; its going no where

for me, i could do with a few more horses to shift my bulk, and I was very close to selling mine and buying one of those which were fo sale before this season started

I think making peolpe move up would be an option to discuss, maybe linked to time in the series and/or position in the championship. Top 5 move up?? 3 years move up?? But then if you cant afford the change, means not racing at all and falling grids...what's the answer? Carrot or big stick? or get rid of class A??

The best way to move on with DD would be to have a power to weight ratio limit open to any air cooled Ducati plenty of them about, or just change the engine.

bike + rider weight minimum limit would be good :)

Would suit me, had a jump on the scales this morning to see Im the wrong side of 14 1/2 stone.

If I were 15 years younger, 1/2 my weight and about a foot shorter I would have liked to try and do this racing stuff seriously!

Perhaps this chap could build us a bunch of bikes for a series...


http://www.corseperformance.co.uk/projects/15-heritage

My own thoughts for Class A would be (as a few have said) use the 696 Monster, if you have not ridden one, get out and try one:D


Chris:burn:

nice...but may not fit the budget racing tag ;) :lol:

Please keep it the same as im currently looking at buying a class b bike to race next year, or even end of this season :D

go for it Spence ;) time for Snetterton yet...

cant imagine B will change as its 2/3rds at least of the grid

Quite frankly the idea of setting up a 4 valve series for Class C has been looked into a few times and whilst say a 748 can be bought for maybe £2K, it is the cost of prep and maintenance that is the killer. I think the last of these bikes is now at least 7 years old and not necessarily relevant to Ducati from a racing point of view.

There is the problem of setting up a set of rules to stop cheating - there are two many performance enhancing parts about - so you would end up having to dyno everyone at every race meeting.

Basically thats why we set up the 848 Cup!

Now the 696 would make a very good basis for a new part of the series - how much can you pick one up for now?

Chris

I havn't been 14½ stone since I was 14½ years old! - You light weight!

I think Chas is right though, and it would benifit "the larger man" as they could have a heavier bike with more power, a lighter fellow or lady could have a super quick light weight machine.

Matt

Racing ain't cheap :(

.............but cheaper than wives:roll:

A quick look on Biketrader throws up a few 2008 bikes for over £4.5k... So I'm sure you can pick them up for £4k.

The reason I won't go to A is because I don't see it as a big enough step from B. The bikes are not much newer and the power isn't a lot more (sure, they are better than B, but just not enough for my liking. I mentioned at the end of last year that I would almost definitely move to A (or whatever it was called) if we could go with a newer model.

As for forcing people out of B, maybe limit to 2-3 years for anyone finishing in the top 3-5 places. Time related for everyone wouldnt work because if someone isn't comfortable/fast in B, why would they want to move up?

If you have power to weight rules a 696 could well be the bike of choice for the more affluent but would leave other options for the techys amongst us & not make the present bikes obsolete:)

you better keep that 848 then ;)

out of interest, of the novices that came in to DD not having raced before (or hardly) how many have gone on to race elsewhere? I can think of rattler, sam west, dom clegg

if not many do and the rules restrict them in B will they just stop racing?

I like power to weight idea - a nice 800 in mine to keep up with the likes of 6 stone Craig ;)

So many good ideas, I dont think people join class B as a step on the racing ladder to greater things. People join DD and particulrly class B as it has a nice friendly feel to the paddock.

I think people are quite happy racing ib B year after year and would only move to class A if that had the same friendly and cheap feel to it. I have considered going to A to help me with my power to weight problem. Lets facing I would guess my bike is having to pull 3 or four stone in weight over most people around me.

696 would be a good idea but at £4K before any modifications it is too much for me. If there were £3K race prepped 696s then that would work.

Power to weight ration that included current A class bikes would allow those bikes to carry on and allow people to modify their B classes to be eligible??

Mark

£4.5k is for a cherished road bike... I'm sure you could find a scrappy one that had been dropped for half that... Let's face it, it might get dropped again! If this is seriously a possibility, it would be nice to sort it out now so that I can sort out my bike in plenty of time. I don't want a New Year rush job.

Power to weight could get messy if you ask me. I'd rather keep it as a sort of one make thing to keep it simple for the less techy newbies, and to keep checking eligibility as straight forward as possible.

As a novice surely power to weight would also be the easiest to enforce. Requires a set of scales and dyno!

A good way of dicussing this would be at one of the two day meets. That way we can all get together.

I also think skinny riders should have to add ballast to their bikes to make it a bit evener :) :lol:

.

Power to weight could get messy if you ask me. I'd rather keep it as a sort of one make thing to keep it simple for the less techy newbies, and to keep checking eligibility as straight forward as possible.[/quote]


It's messy as it is! to many rules, power to weight any air cooled Ducati one rule how easy is that to control;) Bemsee do it with Thunder bikes works fine.
The less techy can just buy a 696 as you would like to do Ron & every one's a winner:) well maybe:D:

If it is power/weight I could just have the Nemesis on my 848 tweaked to limit power and give me shedloads of torque! ;)

Power/weight on the surface is straightforward, but the whole one-make/limited changes rule keeps things sensible on other costs - such as shocks/forks etc. If we are limited to small changes on one machine any amount of money shouldn't give anyone a real advantage (I think that is the main point of the series). Otherwise we just end up being another Minitwins/thunderbikes. I would like to keep things simpler than that.... it is the main reason I joined DD in the first place rather than any other series. I didn't have to know a lot about bikes... I could just go buy one and race knowing I could be competitive. If we mess with that, we could lose what the series is about (in my opinion).

Remember that when we started DD back in 2005 there were a few people that went out and dropped £5.5k on a new Monster / SS 620 to take part, as they were brand new out then.

You could as you say tweak the 848 except it's not air cooled;)

Also there are a lot of people in DD that like to fettle & that's what it's all about for them.
Even if you bought a new 696 you still need to do something about the suspension as it's pretty basic.

I think that going one model 696 would put a lot of people off as there are not enough cheap bikes out there, It's hard enough to find desent 620's.
Also what would happen to the present 620's no where else to race them??

Good point.... If the rules remain air cooled only.

Depending on what power/weight you choose, the 620's would become obsolete anyway. They could still be run, but shouldn't be as competitive if a decent power level is picked.

I know the standard suspension would need working on... As with the current bikes. But, it would be nice if it could be restricted to standard kit (tweaked) to keep costs reasonable. That is why I was liking the one-make rule, so it is obvious everyone was on a relatively level playing field.

Sounds like we need to dig Nogs Maxxis rules out?!......

Me too!! In the last few weeks I have got a van, a standard SS600 & s/h leathers, and I've got my ACU course on Monday. Now I just need to get the bike sorted, and the rest of my gear and my licence, aiming to race at Pembrey in July (I hope), trouble is I'm skint now.

Really no need to worry about Class B. Im 100% sure it will be the same for many years yet. This is more about what can be done for class A (or an additional Class).

The power to weight would need to set so a standard 696 was the bench mark then you can do what you like to old monsters/ss to make them competitive.

As for suspension the rules should stay the same as they are now or all the present bikes would become illegal.

Agree and agree. My suspension point was similar rules to now to try to limit Ohlins etc upgrades (I'm guessing the 696 was never Ohlins shod).

So, 150kg and 80bhp?... Would that allow 800 monsters? Would they have more torque?.... Can of worms?

(just checked wiki: 696: 80hp and 51lb/ft. 800: 74hp and 54lb/ft.... So a fairly easy way to keep existing bikes competitive?)

I toyed with the idea of building a mini twin 696 & I recon it would make a very light & nimble bike, would make a great DD bike aswell.

I have a X DD class A bike with an 800 motor it makes 79bhp on HM's dyno can't remember the torque but I guess it would be on par with the 696 but it weighs 176kg so a bit more than the 696.

being honest, not sure I'd be any quicker with a 620 anyway, I have to find the limits of a 583 before I can go any quicker. Not even sure I'd go that much quicker with an 848!! :lol:

Well looks like i'll pick up my new bike in next few weeks,so few trackdays and maybe first race cadwell. See you there. :D