Anyone think we should be using wets?
 

As a rough summation:

We now have a control tyre with less tread than before,
we now have a race series that declares Wet Races,
we are now spending more money on entering race meetings where it might rain.
Many people have spare wheels.
Modern wets don't need warmers, especially with the time taken to form up before racing.
A set of wets would last all season with our 50-65bhp bikes.

Anyone think we should be using wets?

Discuss :devil:

Yes

But do riders of our standard understand how to use wets? when they will work and when they will chew up and certainly not last a season. Can our speeds in the wet get them up to temp? These are not road tyres which are easy to get heat in? (I dont know just asking)

In principle I am 100% for it after watching Race 1 from the pitwall, it look pretty scary for all (except Ron).

Plus the cost of the repairs to dropped bikes at these wet races will more than cover the cost of wets.

I dont really understand why we arent using them? I understand the reason not to have warmers & slicks but wets were designed to keep people racing in the rain. Road tyres are designed to get you home in the rain by driving like Miss Daisy.

if a rep from Dunlop had been there I'm sure he/she would not allow us to have raced in those conditions on those tyres. We had Brands stopped for less than that.

Yes, did I say yes although I may have meant yes however, I think yes we should have wets.
For one reason and one reason alone "SAFETY"

One set of wets will last a year (no need for warmers) £250
Used wheels & discs at top money £200
(I bet half of us have a spare set already)

Total £450 divided by 16 points races = an extra £28 per race over the year.
(even less if you do the non points).
That's less then the price of a genuine brake lever.
How many of you have spent £100's of pounds on trick bits over the year and they have no performance or safety value?
I'll bet we are a laughing stock when the other Hottrax racers watch us in the wet.

Adding wets to the series bungs up the price,

This year we have only had Saturday at snetterton where wets would have been usefull, would it have been worth the expence for one race ?, if racing had started on time we would actualy have had a dry race. the race was red flagged due to an incedent but then again so was the dry race on Sunday, yes you can argue there were more fallers in the wet race, but i have seen as many in a dry race (Mallory last year for one)

Some people even given the option to race on wets would not go out,

So from my point of view i am happy to race on the tyre we have and race according to the conditions.

All,

I wasn't there, but can only guage the conditions from a few picutres I saw.

My answer fro this series is NO, as there is too much hassle deciding whether to fit them or not, will conditions change in the race, is there a dry line.

I have raced where we had the choice of wets, and yes they are great, in fact fantastic in the wet, but sometime the choice is marginal and that can make it dangerous also.

In the end we are all on the same tyre, some will have more confidence than others in the wet.

Steve

No

most of the top riders know and understand how far to push the Dunlops. For the once or twice a year we would use wets would people be able to understand and feel how hard they could push the wets??

As for the conditions at Snet a pair of canoes strapped either side would be more appropriate than wets!

Just my thoughts

Bearing in mind we have an exclusive contract with Dunlop to supply the tyres for the series, do they actually have a suitable wet tyre for the series?

There's a lot of questions that would need debating and serious research into the effects on the series, such as: if we can get wets in the right size, whether they will heat up enough to be of any use (I seem to recall this discussion about issues with the newer Pirellis last year? ;) ), the true cost of adding spare wheels and disks into the series, how often they would actually get used (not just cost over the whole series - it's how often you use them that counts), and the overall safety aspects of letting the riders out on them in what is effectively a novice series, and whether or not we enforce the races as "wets only" (based upon a wet-race declaration) and if we should exclude those who don't pay for wets from being able to race...

It's not just a case of "let's switch to using wets" I'm afraid, and it's certainly too late for this year anyway.

I'm more than happy to open up the debate now to allow us all to come to a sensible conclusion at the end of the year to ensure that the rules for 2012 can be fixed as early as possible.

I've used wets this season on my 600ss racing with both W100 and PDMCC and they work fine. The rear wheel cost me £50 off here, spare disk about £20 of ebay, and I already had a spare front & disks from my S4R. I don't use warmers as i am not going as fast, as long as they have sharp edges they work just fine.

Anglesy race was declared a wet race, but it was not wet, it was not even damp if a wet rule was enforced for that race the outcome would have been different and a pair of wets would have been wasted.

agree and it would add an extra 'choice' for us novices to make. But IMHO they should have stopped it at the red flag; if not long enough to decare the result then a couple of laps or whatever it took to complete or just call it.

but then others seemed to be going ok, Phil loved it! and the boys at the front seemed to manage....

having never used wets I'd like to try them, see what they are like.

I cant for a minute remember over the seasons how many races we have actually had where wets would have been a serious option - but I would speculate that there have probably been less than 10 in all.

As has been already stated earlier in this thread, it is potentially more dangerous to have a situation where one might have people with insufficient experience ending up on inappropriate tyres out there, by giving them a choice of tyre. At some point after west were introduced, someone will then put forward the idea of intermeadiate tyres as well and that again raises the cost of cometition. If all riders are on the same control tyre then it is the same for everyone and as has been shown it forces lap times to slow, which is safer.

Ultimately if you get caught out in a deluge on the road, do you park the bike and wait for it to dry out completely before heading home? Of course not - you slow down and get on with it!

My 2p's worth-when Johnny B was racing my TZ we had 3 sets of wheels, wets, inters, and full slicks-caused amazing problems when the weather was variable. The track is drying out so I think we should be on slicks-no no, leave it on inters. Hells teeth, it's starting to drizzle again-lets put the wets on. So you go out on wets, most of the rest are still on slicks, the track is drying-and you come last-and trash a perfectly good pair of wets...........
Sometimes having too many options is a bad thing.

John

John,

This is my experiance also. It worked for us when we did endurance racing, and worked for me at Knockhill when I rode the 400, but then I usually left the house with them on for the weekend!!!
But for most it causes stress at the last minute due to having to make the choice, and then effects you during the race if you feel you are on the wrong tyre, this is worse for the more novice rider/racer.

Steve

And my 2p's.
The main Ethos of DD was to get people from doing trackdays to get into racing as cheaply as possible with rules that did not allow the person with deeper pockets to buy go faster tuned engines etc.

To add full wets, spare wheels will etc, cost is a minimum of £300-400 plus, how many times would you use them?? once, twice, maybe three times.

Some riders would put wets on when they are not needed, some would go all out in the wet and still end up in the kitty litter.

Some riders say that it is a safety issue??? sorry I for one do not buy that, I have raced with wets & with out wets, and belive me it is down to how you ride, I have beaten riders on bigger bikes who went out on wets while I went out on my standard race tyres (207gp's) at the time, a lot of it is all in the mind. The reason some one ends up falling is one of three things, too hard on the brakes, to ham fisted on the throttle, and leaning the bike to far over rather than hanging off the bike.


You are all on the same tyres, the smoother you ride the faster you go, the faster you go the hotter the tyres get, the hotter the tyres get, the faster you can go.

One fact regarding road tyres, they are made to be ridden in the wet, if they were not capable they would be illegal.

My own toughts would be that class "B" would dwindle if you allowed wets to be added, my self and others spoke to three people wanting to join DD next season, or later this season if they can be ready, and the reason they wanted to join, "Because it is a cheap, friendly race series".


Like I said, just my 2p's worth.


Chris:burn:

[quote=bradders]agree and it would add an extra 'choice' for us novices to make. But IMHO they should have stopped it at the red flag;

I agree Paul because I was leading by about 8 to 10 bike lengths at that point.. And that lead from 5th on the grid in those condition was bottom clenchingly earnt! :D

Most people who are regular TD goers have a set of wets and know when to use them but I see you point.

The problem isn't having wets or knowing when to use them but when the scenario happens were you are 20 minutes from a race being called and it starts shower, do you choose wets or not! and if you do then will you get all the bolts tightend correctly in the panic to get the wets on and certainly at a place like Anglesey where it dries very very quickly you can trash a set of wets in one race. Fair enough if someone can afford wets and the bloke next to him can't then they may have an unfair advantage but I've said it before, for a novice trying to get into racing your aren't the cheapest club. It's cheaper for me to race with W100 and also PDMCC. So if someone can afford to race at every one of the DD rounds they can certainly afford a set of wets.

Paul

One point I missed earlier - on the front tyre there is a strip on the shoulder that is almost completely tread-free.
This wasn't the case on the Pirellis that we used before.
So at a certain angle of lean we're running on slicks.
How can that make safe RACING on a wet track?
We're not talking riding home carefully when the heavens open, we're talking about corners like Coram, Gerards, Clearways etc etc where you have to carry some lean.

Maybe we should be allowed to cut the tyres? Then those who think the tyres could do with more water dispersal for the wet could do so?

It may be cheaper for you to race with your local club(s), but what you are forgetting is that the DD series covers and caters for riders from all over the UK as best it can, ie Brands, Snet, Pembrey, Castle Coombe, Cadwell, Angelsey to name but as few, and to that extent it is cheap.

One thing a lot of people are missing is that nearly all of the great one make series with control tyres only ran with one not two types of tyre.


Chris:burn:

it's always a fun debate on here when it comes to it. yes it makes it slightly cheaper, but in reality how much as above many will have spare wheels and have enough sense to be able to make a decision on what tyres to use.

Those saying that novice could get it wrong are not giving people much credit. yes, we all make incorrect tyre choice when given options, but equally we all make incorrect decisions on how hard to push in wet weather, especially novices?? DD is not the only place novices start and yet they manage to make decisions in all these other classes without too much issue. its all part of the learning curve and fun of racing!

I have now raced in 3 low powered twin races series and would pick the series with wets every time. CB500 is cheaper and more constraimed than DD but they can run controlled wets as well. at 145 set it's not breaking the bank and they last and they are Flippin AWESOME!!!

I love ducatis and would race back in DD if they had wets, simple fact, I also reckon that for every person who says they are joining DD because its cheap they would probably still join if wets were an option but I bet there are more people wont join because they are not!!

I had a set of wets on wheels for my R1 for two years, and you know, I never used them!

I cant comment on wets as I've never used them. My 848 was fine on those NCT2's at Silverstone last year when I was mixing it with guys on full wets. If it rained today I'd have sat out the wet sessions having the Supercorsa's fitted or even tried wets if it was a washout.

Andy

I agree completely with you Claire.
Alas it seems that the decisions in DD are made by the select few and not by the actual riders.
Not really a club that is it?

Wets would be a Bully Bonus in my little world. Not a huge outlay and the increase in grip should be considered a positive safety factor.

Perhaps we should ask the Race Committee (?) if they can explore the possibilities and costs of Dunlop wets with Dunlop and get a formal statement from them?

You never know, we might get to a position where wets can be made available for the last round at Oulton for those that want them prior to inclusion in the 2012 rules. (Along with the 796 and 748 - only joking!)

I'll send a mail to the usual address shortly....

Not strictly true, i was helping out at the tyre testing session taking temp readings when the bikes were going out and coming in at variouse times over the day, everyone there as far as i am aware are riding in DD they were the riders who gave their thoughts and opinions about the choice of tyre for this year. so it was in fact the riders who made the choice, and as yet i personaly have not heard any complaints about this years tyre choice.

As far as the wets goes, the riders should have the final call on if they use them or not after all its their neck out on the line if they think its too risky to race without them, but it should still be left to the rider to make the call on the day if they are going out on wets or not. its the riders that make DD not a select few, if the riders want wets then it should be put to the vote. we all know threads can go on and on with this opinion and that opinion but very little gets resolved because its all bits and pieces and very difficult to form an accurate opinion,

Its the riders race series so its up to the riders to get together with the race comittie and be heard. i think most riders are looking at wets as a safety issue and not an advantage making issue so from that point its a valid request to have wets allowed, should it be compulsary or optional to use wets when a wet race is declared is another issue that would also need deciding on.

Riders and commitie at at every/most meetings its just a case of getting together and sorting it out. we all get together for trophy presentation so why not a riders meeting with commitie.

Again as i have already posted early in this thread, i dont think the cost of wheels and wets are warrented, when they might only be used for one race in the whole season.

Easily done. I dont think this is a particularly private matter so why doesnt everyone just quote this and add a Yes (yes for wet tyres) or no (no for wets) like I have done.

Rider

Alan P
Ron J
Neal C
Kev P
Phil W
Hugh S Yes
Paul B
Mike T
David J
Paul P
Phil D
Scott W
James S
Craig F
P Nelson
Paul K
J Norman
Mark E
Graham F
Gary W
Andy T
Dean Pollard
A Vespa
Jim Charters

Rider

Alan P
Ron J
Neal C
Kev P
Phil W
Hugh S Yes
Paul B dunno
Mike T
David J
Paul P
Phil D
Scott W
James S
Craig F
P Nelson
Paul K
J Norman
Mark E
Graham F
Gary W
Andy T
Dean Pollard
A Vespa
Jim Charters

Sorry - did you miss my post at the top?

I'm more than happy to open up the debate now to allow us all to come to a sensible conclusion at the end of the year to ensure that the rules for 2012 can be fixed as early as possible.

Wets - yes
Dunlop Qualifier Dry - yes
Class B 53BHP - yes
Class A 65 bhp - yes

Weight limit - no
suspension - front n rear as is
Brakes -as is
Wheels - OEM

Wets - ???
Dunlop Qualifier Dry - yes
Class B 53BHP - yes
Class A 65 bhp - ???

Weight limit - 160kg
suspension - front n rear as is
Brakes -as is
Wheels - OEM

plus - all races count - no dropsies

As this thread is veering off track slightly ( a bit like Awful Lawson under braking ) I'll just add that I've had a response from the DD team that they are going to talk to Dunlop over tyres for the wet.

Thanks guys.

ouch! PMSL

plus - all races count - no dropsies[/quote].. YESS!! :lol:

I agree with Bionicle, Stevce41, MOnty, chris.p and others.

Wets will not make racing safer. You'll probably find there as many fallers duing a dry race as there are during a wet race where wets are being used (wonder if any clubs have some stats on this?). Upside in the wet is it'll probably be a lowside into the mud - less likelyhood of bodily or machine damage. We chould allow the use of Ohlins TTX front foorks on the safety argument. Safety is the connection between brain and right hand.

In my experience wets will work on DD bikes but are only good for 1 race -
a bit more if it is constantly wet (standing water). Ideally they can only be used once. Using wets adds expense, hassle, stress and complexity.

We race within a set of rules. These rules and the conditions are the same for all competitors. The challenge is to get results within these rules and conditions. When we land in an unfamiliar situation (in a race, on a DD bike, wearing road tyres during a biblical deluge... in Norfolk...), it is uncomfortable (some say scary... others say exciting...). Simmilar to the feeling we all had when we ventured out onto the race track for the first time. Through practice and application we gained proficiency in that situation. This is the fun part :-)

All those riders who were out there on Saturday: over the course of the race, did you feel yourself getting better? Did you get just one corner 'right' within that situation? Did it feel good?

I have found that the amount of money I spend on racing tends to be inversely proportional to the amount of enjoyment I get out of it. DD is a relatively cheap, simple format that works. It is the most enjoyable form of road racing I've done... let's keep it that way ;-)

The only rule changes that should be made should be to encourage more riders to the grid.

http://www.speedtherapy.co.uk

Nicely put :)


Chris:burn:

Pardon?


Others may disagree but I think I've raced enough to feel qualified to say that racing on wet tracks on road tyres does not feel as "good" (good=safe and fun in my book) as racing on wet tracks on proper wet tyres.



Precisely. Perhaps not being able to use wets is discouraging new entrants? We've run single control tyres now for 7 years, maybe it's time for the series to evolve in that direction?

felt worse, but then on track in standing water I am a pussy :(

Wets are for safety when RACING in the wet. These are road tyres which can be used in anger when dry with bikes of our power. When very wet the slip resistance is hugely decreased and there is no way the manufacturer would suggest they are suited to racing in that weather.

A bike with slicks on "could" go round in the wet and Im sure if you made it you "might" feel a better, smoother rider. But this is racing, not a competition of who can get the bike back to the paddock in one piece.

However I do understand that DD is more about ducktape and cable ties rather than wets and warmers. :lol:

or a full Wet bike to sit alongside the Dry bike, and yes I have everything to build a second bike and the space to transport it :)
And I'll do a better job of water-proofing a wet bike :(

No different to when I was racing F600, SoT and Powerbike, only series I never had a wet bike for are 1300 Streetstocks as we raced with 130bhp on Road Tyres (see attached regs) and Desmo Due with its lower power output

what were the R6 Cup guys running on? I know they were road tyres dry but did they use wets?