DD v big bike lap times
 

been having a bit of a convo on FB and offline about this, and having compared times from videos of Cadwell with me on a TD doing 2'02s, Trouty in a race on 620 doing 1'55 kinda time v Spike Edwards on an 848 doing sub 1'40's

anyone compared their times from say 848/IL4/1098 v same person on same track similar conditions on a DD bike?

be interesting to know if anyone has data to hand. Guess Sam West for one has moved up so would have some times, who else?

BTW the vids showed on Park straight apex to apex 6 or so secs slower for trouty and 12+ for me

Dallas at Pembrey

583 Class B bike 1m 08.9s
1098 Same weekend 1m 04s
his best lap was on a Superstock R1 with a 1m 03s

SoT and Superstock llap records are less than a minute

Leon Morris the 848 Champion for 2011 has probably lapped Pembrey in a minute when he was racing a R6 with North Glos

There doesnt sem much difference at pembrey between big and small bikes tho. when you think there is what, 8-10 secs between the thous and 583 DD?? Compared to 15 or more for an 848 and closer to 20 at cadwell. Spose coz its half the laptime, % wise is probably similar, although B Dd is 58's at Brands and yet the thous are what, 10 secs quicker???

what do you reckon you could do on the 998 Kev around Cadwell compared to what you did this year on A class?

Mark Lister did a 1.37 on my 800 Ducati around Cadwell (79BHP)

what did he do with a 620 chaz? I think cadwell is really dependent on that straight line speed, and the difference between my 583 and the 620's is a fair few seconds, with a few more with larger bikes.

What I'm really wondering is if I could get to a 1'40 or less with an 848, R1 or whatever. Obviously bored :lol:

Never got a clock on him with the 620 as he only rode it on the DSC track day.

ar of course didn't do that round last year

still think I'd struggle with a low 1'40. I need to find out!!

what did he do round brands on 800 or his T9? can you remember?

Not sure what on the 800 but his lap record on the 620 is 55.35.

1:44 on my 620 (reckon 1:43 if I knew how to set the bike up properly). My friend Steve does 1:36 on a stock 2010 Blade so I'm sure 1:40 is acheivable on the 848/R1.

Wouldn't mind a go on that 800. ;)

Just look at the Harley XR times round Cadwell. Very low 40's with 90bhp and 200kg+.... if you can't match that on an 848 you may as well give up!! ;)

remember talking about me here not one of you riding gods ;)

must stop looking on ebay and biketrader....

to be competitive in any other larger class, you have to be in mid 30's or may as well stay at home

times ???
 

Before I started racing I had a fireblade and a Honda Sp2 which were both road bikes and both mint condition, very fast and I liked them very much, I used to be able to lap Brands at not much under a 1:00.

The very first time I rode my class B bike I did a :59 and it only had 43bhp, and standard foot pegs which really limited lean angle,

I did a TD there last year on my 160bhp 999s and only managed a high :53's this year on a very unsorted 620 i did 55 or 56 or something,

The big fast bikes are much much faster, they have better brakes, weigh less and better suspension

- BUT -

They are easier to crash and cost more if you crash them. this slows most of us down a bit I think.

I seem to remember you were a tenth or so faster than me at Cadwell.

I don't tend to think about that when I am on mine... probably how I ended up in the Gravel at Rockingham. I think about it before and after, but not when I am on track.... same thing with the danger element of racing.

I recon he's talking about me mate :)

Trouble is it's not an 800 anymore it's about 660, I may put it back to 800 or I was also thinking of putting a 1ooo lump in it.

Your welcome to ride it anytime you like Neil.

Sorry, Master.

Rattler would probably be a good gauge, as a front runner A who has moved on to larger capacity racing.

Must see if I can find some results

Why not look to see what Sam was doing at Snetterton

Here we go

Snetterton 2009 Timed Practice

Sam West 1m 12s in SoT Ducati 1198
Mike Tessyman 1m 26s in Maxxis on Ducati 853
Mark Lister 1m 20s in DD on Class A 620
Matt Larrett 1m 26 in DD on Class B 583

Thats when I was confused about my sexuality.................:o

Mike........................

Matt larrett's 2009 time was 129.20
Harriet Ridley 127.12 (2 seconds slower than her lap record)
Matt Lawson 127.26 (After my first ever crash, in Qualifying)
Sam West 127.29 (on Davids bike if I remember right)

Mark Lister wasn't in it in 2009 ???

so how much on the straights then matt from bigger capacity? You think given an 848 or 600 or 1000 you'd be competitive in a race series?

Oops I meant 2010


SO

Snetterton 2010 Timed Practice

Sam West 1m 12s in SoT Ducati 1198
Mike Tessyman 1m 26s in Maxxis on Ducati 853
Mark Lister 1m 20s in DD on Class A 620
Matt Larrett 1m 26s in DD on Class B 583
Matt Lawson 1m 27s in DD on Class B 583 (just for you Matt)

dunno
 

I honestly don't know, on test days there are always some 1000's and some 600's going slower than I am so I wouldn't be right at the back, at the end of last year I did the Donington November round and entered the up to 1000's race, I was about 5th to last which I was really happy with given the 3x power advantage that the other competitors would have had,

but,

I think it would take a bit of getting used to. Big bikes have more power less weight and better suspension, I know from my 999 that I can go about 4 or 5 seconds faster around brands on a big bike, probably slower in the corners, but every time I rode it, me being used to the 600ss that I raced, it scared the pants out of me, I was very carefull and I know I never got anywhere near its potential.

the question is, if I raced one would I ever get used to the power and be confident enough to thrash it to within an ince of its life????????

Don't know??

[quote=
the question is, if I raced one would I ever get used to the power and be confident enough to thrash it to within an ince of its life????????

Don't know??[/QUOTE]

ar yes, the same I am asking myself :)

Dont know till you try. Anyway, what the worst that can happen ;)

If I can get the money together I will be doing a bigger bike series as I am not doing class B next year. If money is tight then I might be doing A or nothing at all.

get yer mate Jolley's 848 and see how that goes ;)

kinda really regretting (like I wasnt already!1) chopping my 848 and getting the numpty, would have been a perfect tool to try with

Race at what level, in what series? 848 challenge I suppose, but I don't see how you could be competitive unless you had at least £10k to play with (plus bike)... And if you are not competitive, why bother?

Also Rons bike is a bit pretty and new for me (read 'budget') think a Cat D would be more my style.

The one thing that most of us in DD (except NealC) have never had to worry about is "the highside" and really the loss of front / rear crashes are generally the ones you get up from easy. But I feel that racing on a 100bhp+ bike a highside is an absolute certainty (at one stage or another).

So me moving up requires me coming to terms with the fact that in 2012 I might exit Clarke Curve at Brands (or any other) too hard on the gas and do a superman that could end up pretty bad.

Also I doubt that even at Brands (my favorite track), on a good day and an 848 setup just right I doubt I could get into the top 10, perhaps that is even wildly wrong and I might not even get out of last place? In which case it is a lot of money and risk?!

and both have the exact point I'm in two minds about; would I be able to transfer skills on the DD bike to a much faster bike and be competitive enough that I dont go back to being lapped by someone on the same machinery

As Hugh says, only really one way to find out....class A it is then :D :lol:

you not get any fun from just doing something the best you can :puzzled:

and what is a measure of competitive - not last---top 50%---top 10---top 5---podium every race?

I've done the approx sums and reckon if you don't crash too much (or too badly!) or blow anything up 6k on top of the bike cost could scrape it in. Prob not at the front, but then the mid pack can be great fun ;)

Bradders, Serious off now...............if you fancy running the 853 r with me and another in the no budget cup next year i would be happy. Share entry fees ans costs etc...............................

just googled it Mike - Anglesey & Cadwell - could I have two better circuits?! :D

pm

My thoughts here (as Bradders has mentioned me) is that moving from DD to "big bikes" is not necessarily straightforward, but can work by adaptation, given time.

Obviously racing skills and techniques are portable, but having started racing in DD and then having raced 675s, 749s, 996s and soon a 848, I'd say not easily portable without thought and effort.

For me, I had so much more time on a DD bike to react and make racing decisions which you have far less of on a larger bike. On larger bikes, managing the throttle through and out of corners takes a lot more thought (risk averse) to prevent hi-siding, whereas on a DD bike, the throttle was more of a switch and the fear of hi-siding was virtually non-existant.

Or take a corner list Chris curve, or Corams, on a DD bike, you simply go flat out, on a bigger bike you're likely to have to meter the throttle and feel (sense?) how much throttle you can present and you need to go closer to the limit (risk?) to go as fast as you can (DD = 100% throttle is as fast as you can = less perceived risk).

Also, cornering on a DD bike is the fun part as they are so relatively slow in a straight line, no fun was to be had on the straights. It can be the opposite for bigger bikes.

And I too was the one on trackdays getting overtaken on the straights on my DD bike by litre monsters only to be passing them again going into a turn, but part of the fun of riding a larger capacity bike (at least on trackdays) is how blindingly fast they are. And on larger bikes, corners are just a way of getting to the next straight ;) In racing terms, this can mean you have a fast laptime, but actually become slower in the corners.

There's more grip from the tyres (at least compared to the older Diablos), potentially another 100bhp on tap, better suspension (perhaps), but this just means that you should go faster, not that you actually can or do.

You get to corners much faster than on a DD bike, so braking becomes more critical, you have to manage the throttle during and coming out of the corner much more than on a DD bike, and get to the next corner much quicker to do the same again!! - its more hectic.

DD is great, racing bigger bikes is great too, I think there's different styles to maximising either.

Tim

Nice way of putting it Tim, like all things its a learning curve you have to take time to learn.

yup, agree with Timofy here.

having raced DD, CB500 and SV - all small capacity non race oriented bikes as well as a 998 and a gixer 750 I can honestly say that for me I am faster on a smaller bike.

the perceived sense of speed and the ability feed in power makes it harder for me to ride the bigger bikes. Yes I am quicker, but only marginally compared to the actual power/handling differences.

its simple for me.. i have a speed which i am happy at and it really doesn't matter what bike you put me on that's the speed i go. The positive of this means that I am quite happy in the wet as i don't go much slower than i do in the dry :lol:

Exactly what a DD bike gives you, unlike riding a much faster Powerbike or Open Class Bike that arrive so fast at corners you have little time to spot your braking,turn in, Apex and exit points.
First couple of years of DD I found things alot easier a bit like doing things in slow motion having spent the previous 5 years racing, Fireblades, TL1000s and 916s.
Setting a DD bike up for corner entry is a lot easier than setting up a bike arriving at the same point say 50mph faster

cool, interesting stuff. And very relevant to what I have been trying to make up in my own mind too.

Think most instersting is the fun factor. I have never had a big thrill from going fast in a straight line. It is always a means to the next bend.

Then as Skids has told me before, ride a big bike then jump on the DD and everything feels so slow, you can go fatser. Seemed to work for Dallas (in the examples he gave)

I can echo some of the comments above, I went 7secs a lap quicker at Cadwell on my 749 as opposed to my DD bike, partly down to me hating the DD tyres having been used to much stickier stuff but it still shows the difference. On a small bike with sticky tyres, SV650 i was only 2 secs off my 749 time. I think I am better on a smaller bike as you get more time to think about things and coming out of corners you are pretty much flat out and not wondering how many of you bhp's you can feed into the rear tyre.

Trying to guage how you will go on a bigger bike after DD is hard, you may find you got a bit slower than you thought just because you arrive at corners quicker and you have to feed power in out the corners :)