Ducati Sporting Club UK > Model Specific - Discussion, Technical Problems and Help > Supersports: SS / SuperSport / Supersport 950 > Death of the air-cooled SS range

[twpd]

I think dual spark is one of those things unique to 2vlv motors - a lots of air-cooled Jap racers in the 70's had ds head retro-fitted - the theory being that it gave a better burn to compensate for the lumpy head/piston design created by two large valves. Moriwaki and Yoshimura did a lot of that stuff - I think there was never anything conclusive to prove the theory though, and it all died out when 4vlv motors started coming online.

For all their good points, the 4vlv Duke motors have their fair share of probs. The 2vlv is a better road engine by far imo.

[Steve M]

Originally posted by ziggi
If you put yourself in the Ducati engineers shoes, what are they thinking ...

"What can we do to the old air-cooled motor to make it more upto date and sound quicker.... what about dual spark .... yes, that sounds good, 2 sparks ... must mean faster ... no-one will know the difference. Marketing will love it."

Or it might just be for emmissions but apart from being more efficient dual spark can't be that great otherwise the 999R would have it.

Two spark plugs are used to give a more efficient burn - in the 2 valve engine the plug is not central like it is in a 4 valve engine so one each side of the valve should work better (in theory) The 4 valve design doesn't need 2 plugs as having the plug in the centre of the valves give the best combustion.

[ziggi]

Ok so trying not to turn this thread into a DS thing .... but I know Alfa and Nissan both used twin spark engines in 4 valve car motors for both performance and emmissions purposes. If Ducati don't see the benefit for 4v motors then this could be the end of the air-cooled 2v motor.

... but does it mean the end of the Supersport road bikes for Ducati?

... and why wouldn't a 1000DS superlight sell? It sold well for 5 years in the 900 version (6 including the FE).

[twpd]

I think the bikes are seen as old hat and underpowered. 85bhp from a 1000cc twin is not viewed kindly. It's a numbers game innit?

[chicken]

Originally posted by twpd
There'll be no reasonably-priced sporting Ducati left. It'll be Monsters or the ugly and overpriced Superbikes. I'm not really interested in either.

How much is the supermotard going to be?

I think that 85bhp (if only I could get that!) should be more than enough for most but it doesn't count for much in the pub-banter competition.

On the other hand there have been loads of perfectly good cars and bikes that have been ruined by having too much power <ducks to avoid the rotten tomatoes>

[ziggi]

95Hp - it's gonna have the 1000DS which is probably why they haven't killed off the SS yet - that is if that's the plan.

No price that I could find published yet but at a guess, slightly higher than the competition

[Jools]

I agree completely with twpd.

Until I got the 888, my ST2 was the only bike I owned for 4 years or so. OK so it's not aircooled but it's still a 944cc 2- valver that puts out around 85bhp at the rear wheel (thanks to my tuning mods of DP pipes and a JHP chip). I love 2 valvers, the power and torque is spot on for a road bike and I love it to bits.

It is a numbers game. People think that they really need 160 bhp that the latest rash of 2006 bikes have, but they're kidding themselves. There are only a small percentage of people that can use that kind of power on track and still fewer people who can use that power on the road. To be honest 85-100 bhp is more than most people can manage.

If proof were needed, despite various journos looking down their nose at the ST2 (quote: this month's SuperBike saying that the ST2 is "a wimp of a bike only suitable for non-sporting rides") I've never been left behind on a rideout and only get passed by the occasional Jap superbike - and then only on the straight bits.

One of the best feelings that I've had was regularly going around the outside of assorted R1's, ZX's, GSXR's and Milles on that long left hander before the dash down to the hairpin in the fast group on a Rockingham trackday and having a couple of the superbike guys come over to me and say "that ST4S doesn't half shift for a sport tourer". The look of pure disbelief on their faces when I told them that it was only an 85 bhp ST2 was priceless - one of the guys had to peek at the engine to check that it was a 2 valver 'cos they thought I'd just got ST2 fairings on a four valver.

My mate Glyn is even quicker than I am on his ST2, so there is plenty of life in the real world for the humble 2 valve lump.

I've also ridden Fordie's old 900ssie and it seemed even more eager. The engine span up beautifully, and if you just surf the torque you can fire yourself from corner to corner on a big wave of usable power.

2 valvers - I love em, and I can quite believe that a well ridden 800 can see off Gixers in the real world on the road.

The only thing that I would like to see from Ducatis 2-Valve development is attention to the chassis, update it a bit from an essentially 20 year old design, and the weight. A lighter 800 or 1000 with between 85-100 bhp and weighing around 160 kg would have me digging my hand into my pocket to buy one.

[ali]

Originally posted by twpd

The 620 sport, 800ss etc. have all gone now.

But the 695 is a two valver, with I quote:

"the highest output per cubic centimetre of all Ducati air-cooled engines."

I'd say this points to continuing development for 2-valvers, but I'm not sure there's much milage in following the jap route of ever bigger bore, shorter stroke for higher gas flow/peak power.

If I was running dev in Ducati I'd be splitting 2v down two paths, one long stroke, big flywheel, lumpy torque classic style, and one wide bore, high flow, fast revving, high output sporty style.

Either way they're a damn sight easier to look after than a 4v!

Ali

[scully]

Amen to that Jools! Ive made some changes to my 1000SS which I reckon have given me a couple of extra gee gees and I dont want much more. The torque is absolutely fanatastic and if I were a more capable rider I dont reckon much could keep up around the twisties. Last year I rode through the French Alps with some mates and when we stopped the lad following me on an R1 could not believe how much I pulled away from him around and out of the bends, without the power on the straight bits he said he wouldnt have kept up.

I have also some mates nearby with Jap bikes (ZX6 and a Gixer 750) and again same thing when we go out but the best thing I remember once being in St Ives parked up and as we were getting ready to go people were walking past and virtually all looked at mine without looking at their mass produced jap bikes.

So I say 2 valve air cooled Dukes forever! And yes a new lighter 95HP for '07 - I'll be first in the queue!

[twpd]

Ali,

You're missing the point. I'm talking about the death of the SS range - the death of low-tech, simple but effective sportsbikes. The 695 is not that. The 695 is a naked roadbike. I'm specificaly talking about sportsbikes. At the end of the day the 695 has all the usual limitations of an upright naked bike a la Bandit, Hornet etc.