Ducati Sporting Club UK > General > Idle Chat > Undue care and attention for me?

[weeveetwin]

Ains/Philthy:

Here's what I teach my learner drivers. It's a bit simplistic for experienced road users, but it might explain the mind set of the woman driver involved.


1) A normal circular traffic light generally controls only the solid white line behind which you have to wait. When on green, it means you can cross the line and creep forward, but you've to decide for yourself when it's safe to continue. You must give priority to oncoming vehicles.

2) The green filter arrow, on the other hand, is timed to coincide with the oncoming traffic's red light phase. You have priority if you're turning. Oncoming vehicles should not move forward before you have had time to turn - even if your filter light has subsequently turned red behind you, and their light has turned to green. Oncoming vehicles should only move forward when it is safe to do so.

Seen from the woman's point-of-view...
Once she'd crossed the solid white line during the green filter light phase, she'd have expected the oncoming vehicles to be waiting at their red light long enough to have allowed her to turn. At this point she'd probably have forgotten the lights entirely, and switched her attention to looking into the road on her right before turning. (I speak from experience, since my pupils' do this all the time, leaving me to double check for approaching vehicles!) However, if she was slow to turn, and the oncoming vehicles moved off before she was clear of the junction, she probably wouldn't even have been looking their way. Moreover, a motorcycle sharing a lane alongside two cars may not even have been recognised as a hazard.

The timing of the light sequence is critical. Vehicles turning right are given only a finite amount of time to turn. Obviously, if they're slow to move and oncoming drivers' go immediately on their own green light, then problems arise.

Obviously this is conjecture Ains, since I wasn't there. I give the woman's point of view only to play Devil's advocate. If the case reaches court, then I expect her team will be using much the same argument. Here's hoping you can prove it happened otherwise.

Best of luck (...and be sure to get that SPS sorted quickly. Summer's coming!)
Steve

[Ains.]

Steve, you are probably pretty close to what she was thinking. Reason being apparently she had put in her statement that I jumped a red light. At the time I wouldn't have known either way so was shocked to have been told that. It's not conducive to life longevity on a bike!

It also gets into an arguement about how competent do you have to be to get charged with undue care and attention. The way my interviewing officer was talking it would be if you didn't know you were doing something wrong you can't be charged with undue care and attention. I would have thought ignorance is no defence myself. And if you are that incompetent how the hell do you pass the driving test?
The whole basis of road regulations and law is common sense and a sustained basic level of competence, if that is taken out of the equation then the whole edifice falls on it's ar*e. E.g. allowing people to drive in the UK who are from a foreign country that has a driving standard way below that which is acceptable in the UK.

I think it is telling that also on todays posts is the Think Bike sequence that ends with the caption reminding drivers to look again. Considering those guidelines (and the highway code) are held in high regard in RTC court cases then there is an onus on the other driver to have seen the bike, recognised the implications and not gone over the carriageway so late in the light sequence. If she didn't see me, or didn't take into account the lateness of her turn (remember it's over 6-8 seconds after she lost priority) then surely it is she that should be looking at an undue care and attention charge.
It would seem my mistake was thinking that since she had left it so long to turn she wasn't going to. That is not undue care is it?

Ains.

[Davieravie]

On a lighter note Ains.......I would think about changing that avatar just in case they use that in court.

Best of luck mate

[weeveetwin]

Ains

Regarding responsibility:

If I had been turning right across oncoming vehicles under the exact same circumstances, and had missed the potential hazard from the bike, I'd blame myself whatever the law/rules might be. I teach the same to my pupils'. So yes, the woman must share any blame. We all have a responsibility for our own and others' safety. Sadly, too many people are wont to 'pass the buck', and blame the other guy. No-one likes to accept that they're fallible. I've come to the conclusion over the years that it's the good drivers/riders who make the roads safe for the rest of us. The rules of the road are a guideline, yes, but sometimes they have to be bent by the good guys in order to make a situation safe for the fools. I teach this too - probably to the chagrin of the DSA!

As for the foreign licence holders: Don't get me started..!

[djb]

Ains

****, I aint no lawyer and knowledge of the law is limited at best but surely 6-8 secs after priority was relinquished she has to take some responsibility?

Common sense says to me fight her to the bitter end but hen again since when did common sense play a role ....

Anyway dont give up and I'll put a tenner into your fund for what it's worth - anyone else?????

Best of luck

D

[Ains.]

Originally posted by Davieravie
On a lighter note Ains.......I would think about changing that avatar just in case they use that in court.

Ains.

[loverobot]

i agree that the undue care should be the other way round
imagine the scenario if it had had no-one waiting at your lights and you arrived at them as they turned green
you would have gone through quicker (though you would have slowed somewhat) than you probably did and rightly
when turning right across oncoming traffic you may only do so when it was clear to do so
more so at a lighted junction
fight it
and claimfor your damaged bike and injuries against the other driver
need any further advice call me and i will help as much as i can