Ducati Sporting Club UK > General > Idle Chat > Double white line question

[andyb]

Its quite an interesting example youve just given.

I was going to post something on this subject area, for a couple of reasons. First reason that a couple of weeks ago a certain ......., was asking what i had been doing, specifically in relation to my line of work.

I was in fact on a job 3 week Advanced Motorbike course, which im pleased to say i passed on Friday.


There are so many things i could bore you with, but i know that you would all find this topic quite interesting?

As a general rule, overtaking on a solid white line against, is
a no no, except when you fit the criteria in the highway code.

Even then, and i know your bmw overtake didnt fit into the criteria, if you start to put into the equation other factors like you say, (and in particular left hand bend) then you very much experienced the consequences.

With regard to left hand bends, although I would never say never, you have to look at the amount of unseen view, and how much this would increase as you move out to overtake.

We are very lucky on bike to have so much squirt, that you just know youll get by it very soon any way, so why risk a 9/10s overtake when around the corner will be a 10/10s view, so much more disciplined?

Compare the view, and in particular the early view, you can get on a right hand bend. This is where i would be looking to pass.

So in answer to your question i would advise against it, for what my sixpenneths worth.

[Loz]

Originally posted by andyb
I was in fact on a job 3 week Advanced Motorbike course, which im pleased to say i passed on Friday.

Congrats, Andy!

Originally posted by andyb

As a general rule, overtaking on a solid white line against, is
a no no, except when you fit the criteria in the highway code.

As a general rule? It might be just the way I'm reading you, but this seems ambiguous. Either it's a hard and fast rule, no exceptions (except those specified in the Highway Code), or it's a "general rule", implying that there are non-specific exceptions (i.e. it's wide open to interpretation). A different example: the difference between DWDC&A and Dangerous Driving is subject to a certain degree of interpretation, but the difference between travelling within a legal speed limit and an in excess of this is a matter of plain fact, no interpretation required.

Originally posted by andyb

Even then, and i know your bmw overtake didnt fit into the criteria, if you start to put into the equation other factors like you say, (and in particular left hand bend) then you very much experienced the consequences.

With regard to left hand bends, although I would never say never, you have to look at the amount of unseen view, and how much this would increase as you move out to overtake.

One of us is way off base here! When I talk about a left-hander, I mean that the road is going to the left - as you pull out towards the centre line, your viewing angle means you see further around the corner, not less!!! I think you are thinking of a right-hander

Originally posted by andyb

We are very lucky on bike to have so much squirt, that you just know youll get by it very soon any way, so why risk a 9/10s overtake when around the corner will be a 10/10s view, so much more disciplined?

I tend to agree with you - the only difference is how each of us measures those "/10's". I'm not talking about balls to the wall red-line overtaking, it's more to do with "making progress" safely and swiftly

Originally posted by andyb

Compare the view, and in particular the early view, you can get on a right hand bend. This is where i would be looking to pass.

Swap right for left, then I agree (as discussed above)

Originally posted by andyb

So in answer to your question i would advise against it, for what my sixpenneths worth.

On the approach to a right-hander, agreed. But, on left handers and straight bits governed by a double-white, I am happy to exercise my own judgement - but I still would want to know whether I am breaking the law.

[andyb]

Sorry mate either im not explaining myself well or your not understanding me.

1) I use the term General rule as, you dont cross the solid, except in the matters discussed in HC, hard and fast. Except.....however, i think if you crossed it to avoid something like a child etc, or you were in automaton, you would have a good case, which of course would be down to interpretation.......

2)You will always get a better view on right handers as apposed to left.

i wil try to explain. Put yourself in what i will call the follow position. ie, lets say the car youve arrived up behind as youve entered the 30 limit, is doing 30mph. You will now follow that vehicle sitting, lets say 10 - 30metres +, behind in a position to the offside of the lane your in, and the offside rear corner of that vehicle.

The reason i give this varied distance is, youre going to stick to the limit ( or less, as the case maybe), and because of the limit you cant pass. Being the careful considerate rider you are, and because you cant pass, you might even drop back, relieving the pressure on the vehicle in front of you.

You know at some point the limit is going to go National, you plan ahead, see it coming up, and move closer to that vehicle in readiness to overtake.( obviously remaining within the limit)

As you both approach the right hand bend ahead, you can get an earlier unobstructed view of the road ahead looking across to your right. You go into the nationals and pass.

job done.

Apply this to a left bend. Now to get a view to the nearside of that vehicle, you have either got to move to the nearside, possibly a position we dont want to be on a vulnerable bike, or drop back. Then of course to overtake, you have got to move back out and or up, to go past the vehicle.

Depending on the size of the vehicle, and the number in the queue in front of it, you are going to lose sight of whats coming towards. There is always going to be an unseen area of the road ahead.
Now you might get away with one vehicle, particulary when there is nothing in your lane in front of it and its quite small.
The amount of unseen view is so small you know there will be no other road user in there.

But make that vehicle even just the size of a transit van, and you will lose sight of the road ahead, as you make your move. Put it in a queue, and you are then gambling on how many you going to take, where are you going to go. Wheres your escape route?
More importantly your putting yourself up on offer.

This is what i mean by degrees of 10ths for the overtake. That 10/10ths view for the overtake will feel so good compared to anything less.

You talk about excercising your own judgement, and your right, thats where the skill come into it.

How many 10ths would you give to your BMW overtake?(a retorical question not a fingerpoint)

Oh and your last point, i would say cross the lines at your peril, both physically and legally.

[andyb]

oh... and no charge for the advanced riding lesson.......

[Shazaam!]

The Double Line

The double line separating lanes is the universal nemesis of motorcyclists. There you are, riding your favorite road, and you pull-up behind Aunt Edna and her three friends who are sightseeing at 10 mph under the speed limit. You’ve got a double line through the twisties ahead for another five miles and you know this part of the road well. You can squeeze between the double line and Edna’s car door and be gone. Or, you can make a clean pass over the double line. What to do?


Lane Sharing

In some places the law allows lane sharing, that is two vehicles can legally ride side-by-side in the same lane. In California, for example the Drivers Handbook reads “Motorcycles are entitled to the same full lane width as all other vehicles. Although it is not illegal for motorcycles to share lanes, it is unsafe.”

This legal permission allows motorcycles to overtake slower vehicles on the carriageways by riding on the dotted lines that separate lanes of traffic. If this tactic is used by the local police, chances are that your local law has a similar provision. Speed limit laws still apply of course, and if you’re exceeding the speed of the surrounding traffic by more than 15 mph or so, you’ve got a problem.


Passing on a Motorcycle

Passing over the double line is as old as motorcycling. The problem is that the criteria for placement of the double lines are developed and written into law for the lowest common denominator AUTOMOBILE, not motorcycles. Modern motorcycles have a performance envelope (both in accelerating and stopping) that far exceeds that of the average automobile. Further, because of it’s much smaller size, a motorcycle can complete a pass in a far shorter distance. How much shorter is not recognized or codified by the highway engineer. Otherwise, they’d have to provide separate pavement markings for motorcycles and Porsches.

We recognize this instinctively when we set-up to pass. We know that we can make our pass much faster and in a much shorter distance than we would if we were driving our cars.

So the police have this great money-maker: Ticket frustrated motorcyclists traveling behind Aunt Edna on a two-lane country road. Without thinking, we pay-up.

Your best bet is to (very politely) explain this to the officer when you get stopped. Chances are, he/she hasn’t thought this point through and - if you made a safe pass - will cut you some slack. This is the best time to win your case.

If you can’t convince the officer, take it to court. Argue that your pass was SAFE. Get the officer to agree that you didn’t force oncoming traffic off the road and you didn’t cut your pass short and sideswipe the overtaken car or truck. Argue that the pavement markings alone don’t mean you were being unsafe or reckless. Offer magazine performance test reports for your model motorcycle as proof that it’s acceleration and ability to stop in an emergency gives you an added margin of safety in such situations.

One more thing. Since the dotted line is designated permissive to pass, you can begin anywhere (even in the last foot) where it is dotted. This is consistent with the rules for establishing a minimum passing sight distance. You don’t have to complete your pass in the dotted zone, you can complete your pass in the solid line zone without breaking the law. If you’re cited for being over the double-yellow in this situation, explain the above minimum sight distance and highway marking design criteria to the officer, and if ticketed go to court - you’ll win.


No-Passing Zone Pavement Markings

(The following is based on the Caltrans Traffic Manual, the California Vehicle Code and the Caltrans Highway Design Manual for California roads. Your local will have similar requirements since most follow accepted standards for highway design and markings, but check the specifics for your area.)

Lines delineate the separation of traffic flows in opposing directions. Broken lines are permissive in character, solid lines are restrictive in character. Solid double lines indicate maximum restrictions. There are two kinds of no-passing zone markings:

The one-direction no-passing marking consists of double (two) lines, one solid and one broken. The driver on that side of the roadway in which the broken line is in place may cross over the double line or drive to the left thereof when overtaking or passing other vehicles .

The two-direction no-passing marking consists of double (two) solid lines. The driver shall not drive to the left of these lines.


Minimum Passing Sight Distance

Sight distance is the continuous length of highway ahead visible to the driver. Passing sight distance is the minimum sight distance required for the driver of one vehicle to pass another vehicle safely and comfortably. Passing must be accomplished without reducing the speed of an oncoming vehicle traveling at the design speed should it come into view after the overtaking maneuver is started.

The following table shows the standards for passing distance related to design speed, and these shall be the minimum values used in design.

345 meters @ 50 kilometers/hr (31 mph)
482 meters @ 70 kilometers/hr (43 mph)
605 meters @ 90 kilometers/hr (56 mph)

When approaching curves or hills on two-lane highways, drivers may be unable to decide if there is sufficient distance to make a passing maneuver. When such curves restrict sight distance, a study is made to determine the marking of no-passing zones.



[Edited on 5-29-2004 by Shazaam!]

[Paul James]

Small detail but I think you will find that the "straddling" bit refers to any part of your vehicle, not just the tyres where they contact the road.

Congrats on your passing the advanced motocycle course, will be a great idea for you to lead one or two of the local ride outs this summer.

[Loz]

Originally posted by andyb
Sorry mate either im not explaining myself well or your not understanding me.

1) I use the term General rule as, you dont cross the solid, except in the matters discussed in HC, hard and fast. Except.....however, i think if you crossed it to avoid something like a child etc, or you were in automaton, you would have a good case, which of course would be down to interpretation.......

Thanks for clarifying.

Originally posted by andyb

2)You will always get a better view on right handers as apposed to left.

Yes, that's generally true, and I have no problem with the additional points you made. I understand how to place myself on the road to maximise the view ahead, but that is not what I mean (and probably failed to explain properly). In the somewhat narrow set of circumstances I am discussing, that is to say moving to the centre line on the approach to a bend in order to overtake a line of cars, the action of moving to the centre widens your field of view with regard to a left hander, and narrows your view for a right hander. But this is a just a minor point within the larger points you raised.
I wasn't trying to teach anyone roadcraft, I'm not even slightly qualified!

I am struggling to express what I mean here, but it isn't really central to my question, i.e. is it legal? To save us both a lot of grief, I am just going to agree with you! Sorry, perhaps we can thrash it out one day in the pub using pint glasses and beer mats to illustrate

Originally posted by andyb

How many 10ths would you give to your BMW overtake?(a retorical question not a fingerpoint)

As your question was rhetorical, I won't answer that I give it 0/10

Originally posted by andyb

Oh and your last point, i would say cross the lines at your peril, both physically and legally.

My last point was about judging whether to overtake whilst staying on my side of the double-whites. I do not advocate crossing the lines and only ever do so in the circumstances outlined by the HC.

I'm dreadful at explaining myself. Thanks for your patience in this!

[Rushjob]

Shazaam.... sorry mate but your interpetation of overtakes on double whites may be correct for the US & other areas but in the UK it is a no no unless as specifically mentioned in the highway code

"If you can’t convince the officer, take it to court. Argue that your pass was SAFE. Get the officer to agree that you didn’t force oncoming traffic off the road and you didn’t cut your pass short and sideswipe the overtaken car or truck. Argue that the pavement markings alone don’t mean you were being unsafe or reckless. Offer magazine performance test reports for your model motorcycle as proof that it’s acceleration and ability to stop in an emergency gives you an added margin of safety in such situations.

One more thing. Since the dotted line is designated permissive to pass, you can begin anywhere (even in the last foot) where it is dotted. This is consistent with the rules for establishing a minimum passing sight distance. You don’t have to complete your pass in the dotted zone, you can complete your pass in the solid line zone without breaking the law. If you’re cited for being over the double-yellow in this situation, explain the above minimum sight distance and highway marking design criteria to the officer, and if ticketed go to court - you’ll win."

If you go to court in the UK and quote either of the criteria you mention you will convict yourself, saving the Police the trouble.

In the UK the offence is absolute - if you cross the solid line and the exemptions quoted above do not apply then you are guilty.

The only chance you have to get away with this is if you can show that the double white line system did not conform to the uk regs, ie the solid line on your side is immediately preceded by two feeder arrows indicating you should return to the nearside and for both lines to be separated by a cats eye or similar reflector stud system throughout their length.

You will also find that most cops whilst possibly giving a warning for a slight exceeding of the speed limit will prosecute you immediately for contravening asolid white line.

Andy

[Edited on 29-5-2004 by Rushjob]

[andyb]

No worries mate, good to chat on really relevent points, rather than some tosh......