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  #1  
Old 24-May-2004, 02:06 PM
ant996 ant996 is offline
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CHECK YOUR INSURANCE

I f you live in yorkshire watch out!! the police are pulling bike over with loud exhausts and if not standard they will ring your insurance company up to inform them about your non road legal exhaust, which then makes your insurance void.then the police are doing you for no insurance....8points.
Don't you just love em!!! I was insured with Devitt who informed me that this is correct, so all bikes with carbon termis are not road legal. I have now changed to carol nash who says, as long as you inform them you are covered.:eureka::eureka:
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Old 24-May-2004, 02:23 PM
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Rushjob Rushjob is offline
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An interesting standpoint, however I think that the position taken by Yorshire Police ( South, West or North??? ) is not as clear cut as it would seem.

I would put forward an argument that you ARE covered as far as insurance for use on a road when stopped and required to produce a certificate of insurance by the Police.

Section 148 of the Road Traffic Act gives this protection in my opinion.

"Avoidance of certain exceptions to policies or securities.

148.—(1) Where a certificate of insurance or certificate of security has been delivered under section 147 of this Act to the person by whom a policy has been effected or to whom a security has been given, so much of the policy or security as purports to restrict—
(a) the insurance of the persons insured by the policy, or
(b) the operation of the security,
(as the case may be) by reference to any of the matters mentioned in subsection (2) below shall, as respects such liabilities as are required to be covered by a policy under section 145 of this Act, be of no effect.

(2) Those matters are—
(a) the age or physical or mental condition of persons driving the vehicle,
(b) the condition of the vehicle,
(c) the number of persons that the vehicle carries,
(d) the weight or physical characteristics of the goods that the vehicle carries,
(e) the time at which or the areas within which the vehicle is used,
(f) the horsepower or cylinder capacity or value of the vehicle,
(g) the carrying on the vehicle of any particular apparatus, or
(h) the carrying on the vehicle of any particular means of identification other than any means of identification required to be carried by or under the [1971 c. 10.] Vehicles (Excise) Act 1971."


Looking at subsection 2(b) once you have your certificate,the condition of the insured vehicle may not be used as a means of rendering the policy void for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act.

It may subsequently be used in a civil case as a reason for not paying out in case of theft or damage, but I cannot see how you could be convicted in a Criminal Court for no insurance and given points for it.

That's my two pence worth.........



[Edited on 24-5-2004 by Rushjob]
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  #3  
Old 24-May-2004, 05:19 PM
ant996 ant996 is offline
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insurance

thanks 4 the reply, you state "the condition of the insured vehicle may not be used as a means of rendering the policy void for the puposes of the road traffic act". i'll pass this onto my 2 friends to see if it helps them?. But as far as insurance goes your insurance is void against any claims you try to make, theft or damage or third party!!
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Old 25-May-2004, 10:50 PM
Mr_S Mr_S is offline
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I'd go along with rushjob on that one, and get a good brief to deal with it if it's an 8 pointer (no insurance carries a hefty markup with insurers too).

I'd also question how they determine they're not suitable for road use. Unless they have "Not For Road Use" blatantly visible of course.

The exhaust must be bsi or e-marked, and that's what is required for an MOT, also they cannot remove anything from the vehicle, so, if you happen to have a BSI marked plate, fixed to your cans, it's sufficient for an MOT, as you have a BSI marked can.

Extract from the testers manual on exhausts

www.motuk.co.uk/mcmanual_620.htm


I know a few people who've used these,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...2845 048&rd=1

or better still

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...sPageName=WDVW

Also, I seem to recall that if the part is believed to be sub standard it must be tested at the expense of the Crown, which is such a ballache to process it gets dropped, especially if the test has any destructive element to it, as they'd have to replace the damaged item.

If they use SPL meters (noise level meters), the calibration argument comes into play, and I believe 80dB (drive by) is the current legal limit, also background noise etc can skew results. Mine read anything from 90-115dB dependant on what angle I hold the (uncalibrated) meter at.

Quick Edit

The limit is 80dB @ 50mph driveby.

[Edited on 25-5-2004 by Mr_S]
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  #5  
Old 25-May-2004, 10:58 PM
ant996 ant996 is offline
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thanks again

leeds ducati informed me that any "carbon termi's" are not for road use and don't have a kite stamp on them! is this correct. I can't find any on mine!
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  #6  
Old 25-May-2004, 11:01 PM
Mr_S Mr_S is offline
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Silencers fitted as original equipment do not need to be marked for the MOT, according to the testers manual.

So you could argue that Termi's are OE, as some of the bikes are shipped with them.....Not sure how far you get though.
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Old 26-May-2004, 10:49 PM
guest1 guest1 is offline
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When about to buy 999 from Ducati Manchester I asked if the termis were fitted would the bike still be road legal (after all he was selling it for road use). Sales guy squirmed and said .... "No".
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  #8  
Old 27-May-2004, 09:40 PM
ducatisps ducatisps is offline
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Whilst the Insurers concerned at the time of an accident cannot get out of paying for a third party claim, if you have not told your insurers and the police do and the insurers then say that they consider it a material fact thta you had a non road legal exhaust and that they would not have insured you if they had known then the police may well be able to proceed with a case. You could use the argument above and it would be interesting to see who would win - but as there are no injuries to third parties there are no liabilities they are trying to avoid. If the insurer does void your policy, then I suspect the conviction will stand - the IN10 conviction comes with a nasty fine too.
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Old 27-May-2004, 10:29 PM
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Rushjob Rushjob is offline
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You're now into the argument between a void policy and a voidable policy.

The difference between a void policy and a voidable policy is that a void policy is invalid and therefore would not cover that person using that vehicle on that road at that time.

A voidable policy is valid, but there is a defect in it which would enable the insurance company to invalidate if they wish.

However, it remains valid until the insurance company takes steps to withdraw it.

It's at this point that you have no insurance - not until.

An example of a voidable policy ( one which the company may withdraw ) is one as detailed above where unless the policy has a specific exclusion relating to non standard exhausts, it is currently a valid policy and the offence of no insurance is not committed.

An example of a void policy is the same rider using the bike for courier work where thereexists a specific exclusion in the wording of the policy excluding business or courier use - here the offence of no insurance is complete.

My view is that the circumstances we have discussed to date fall into the area of a voidable policy - the insurance co would be within their rights to cancel the policy, however they are under a duty to inform you in writing prior to doing so as it could be argued that you have withheld a material fact as regards the exhausts.

That's what I think anyway.....

I now have a headache as I last had to dredge this gem of legislation out of the depths in about 1992!

Andy
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  #10  
Old 28-May-2004, 11:52 AM
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Ray Ray is offline
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Ant996,

The carbon termis on my bike have nothing stamped on them at all, just the termi stickers.

They come with the bike as new.

I would say that carrying your insurance certificate with you would help. I don't usually bother but it can save things going further if you can produce your documents on the spot.

If this practice by the NYPD is the case then it's probably an attempt to stop the practice of them dishing out a rectification notice, the biker getting some std cans fitted to comply with the notice, then when all the paperwork is sorted sticking the noisy pipes straight back on.

The no insurance thing is far more serious and will make someone think again before.

Where they doing this on the 1257 to keep the nimbys happy?

In my experience the SYPD won't bother with pipes or dark visor even when dishing out a ticket for "excess velocity" they will even send you a customer satisfaction survey!!!

You can buy BS stickers and rivet on labels but ultimately they could land you in even more hot water, depends on how keen the fedrale are to spend time and effort on the issue.

Ray
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