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  #1  
Old 08-Oct-2009, 03:27 PM
pguenet pguenet is offline
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Wondering what engine to fit for the next project??

Hi

Track 1038 rs and road 996 Corse projects should complete this year and I am contemplating a tasty part bin, which is probably good enough to put another bike together. Brain is starting to click into the next project....

The bike will be based on a 998 (or 996) frame. The theme will be lightweightness wherever possible. The inspiration will be Supermono, NCR Millona, Pierobon F042, RAD02 Montjuich, etc. The look probably "Supernaked", ie a mix of Superbike, Naked bike and much Cafe racer look. The bike will most likely be exclusively for track as my Chassis does not have a V5 and I don't want to be bothered with Insurance costs, etc.
The chassis will be a 998 or 996, front end superbike wide track, swingarm standard 996 or modified S4R, custom body work and subframe.

The big question though is what engine???

I have some compatiblity and overall character questions to run past all of you handy with spanners. I want something totally opposite to the 998 (now 1038) powerhouse. I want something very light and very nimble which I can truly ride to the limit without the fear of being highsided into outter space.

To achieve the look I was obviously thinking about a DesmoDue engine.

- 1000DS would be my first choice (probably coming from a Multi). That said I have never ridden the 1000DS engine and not sure that this would be suited for a track use. Not sure either how this would fit into a 998 frame. Does anybody know??
I would think that I should be OK on the swingarm, but I am mainly worries about the throttle bodies conflicting with the frame cross-member. Has anybody tried??

- ST3 engine - I have been told that this would be my best bet as they could even be very easily tuned. Here again not sure about the cross member vs throttle bodies. Does anybody know easy ways to source those engines short of finding a crashed ST3

- ST2 engine - RAD02 make use of those. They have equal or more power than the 1000DS and are easy to find cheaply. Apparently they fit easily in a 749/999 frame but it looks like a faff getting them in a 996. You'll have to run a Radiator but it is not that bad on a Cafe Racer. You need to redo all the cross member stuff on a 996 frame from what I understand however which is a pain.
I still have an engine mounting bolt from my ST2 as well and it looks like it is not the same width as the 996. So not sure how that would fit. Does anybody know?

- Then I am thinking that if I don't want to bother too much I may as well go for a 748 / 749 engine. That would be a straight fit. That would achieve a soft / revvy character for the track though the low end would be low. Might be fun though.

- Then again if going on a Desmoquattro, I am thinking that I may as well run a 998s/999s engine so I can swap parts with the 1038... It sorts of defeats the initial purpose of having a bike with softy power and minimalist look. But the RAD02 One looks so good and if I don't tune this it is only 130bhp or so...

Decisions, decisions
What do you guys think??

Philippe
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  #2  
Old 08-Oct-2009, 05:56 PM
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Chaz Chaz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pguenet
Hi

Track 1038 rs and road 996 Corse projects should complete this year and I am contemplating a tasty part bin, which is probably good enough to put another bike together. Brain is starting to click into the next project....

The bike will be based on a 998 (or 996) frame. The theme will be lightweightness wherever possible. The inspiration will be Supermono, NCR Millona, Pierobon F042, RAD02 Montjuich, etc. The look probably "Supernaked", ie a mix of Superbike, Naked bike and much Cafe racer look. The bike will most likely be exclusively for track as my Chassis does not have a V5 and I don't want to be bothered with Insurance costs, etc.
The chassis will be a 998 or 996, front end superbike wide track, swingarm standard 996 or modified S4R, custom body work and subframe.

The big question though is what engine???

I have some compatiblity and overall character questions to run past all of you handy with spanners. I want something totally opposite to the 998 (now 1038) powerhouse. I want something very light and very nimble which I can truly ride to the limit without the fear of being highsided into outter space.

To achieve the look I was obviously thinking about a DesmoDue engine.

- 1000DS would be my first choice (probably coming from a Multi). That said I have never ridden the 1000DS engine and not sure that this would be suited for a track use. Not sure either how this would fit into a 998 frame. Does anybody know??
I would think that I should be OK on the swingarm, but I am mainly worries about the throttle bodies conflicting with the frame cross-member. Has anybody tried??

- ST3 engine - I have been told that this would be my best bet as they could even be very easily tuned. Here again not sure about the cross member vs throttle bodies. Does anybody know easy ways to source those engines short of finding a crashed ST3

- ST2 engine - RAD02 make use of those. They have equal or more power than the 1000DS and are easy to find cheaply. Apparently they fit easily in a 749/999 frame but it looks like a faff getting them in a 996. You'll have to run a Radiator but it is not that bad on a Cafe Racer. You need to redo all the cross member stuff on a 996 frame from what I understand however which is a pain.
I still have an engine mounting bolt from my ST2 as well and it looks like it is not the same width as the 996. So not sure how that would fit. Does anybody know?

- Then I am thinking that if I don't want to bother too much I may as well go for a 748 / 749 engine. That would be a straight fit. That would achieve a soft / revvy character for the track though the low end would be low. Might be fun though.

- Then again if going on a Desmoquattro, I am thinking that I may as well run a 998s/999s engine so I can swap parts with the 1038... It sorts of defeats the initial purpose of having a bike with softy power and minimalist look. But the RAD02 One looks so good and if I don't tune this it is only 130bhp or so...

Decisions, decisions
What do you guys think??

Philippe

Something like this springs to mind. http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/at...9&d=1238147492
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  #3  
Old 08-Oct-2009, 11:34 PM
pguenet pguenet is offline
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I knew that Sparky would be the first one mentioned on this thread... I would love to have Sparky for the engine. But I would not keep the chassis as I already have 998 chassis, 46 mm race ohlins, wide track yokes, Brembo GP calipers, Carbon Tank, and quite a few other bits. I want to run wide track front and single sided rear as well (with a big hub adapter) so I can switch the wheels from the RS bike on to this one (you've got to think about practicalities...).

In terms of look, I am more thinking something like this:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RAD_Uno_1.jpg (112.1 KB, 80 views)
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  #4  
Old 09-Oct-2009, 12:49 AM
Chris Wood's Avatar
Chris Wood Chris Wood is offline
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Like the pic, looks nasty!

Good stuff on Durbhans website too. Lightweight all the way.

Looking forward to seeing the end result, whatever it is. A great list of goodies ready to go in.
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  #5  
Old 09-Oct-2009, 10:22 AM
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Chaz Chaz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pguenet
I knew that Sparky would be the first one mentioned on this thread... I would love to have Sparky for the engine. But I would not keep the chassis as I already have 998 chassis, 46 mm race ohlins, wide track yokes, Brembo GP calipers, Carbon Tank, and quite a few other bits. I want to run wide track front and single sided rear as well (with a big hub adapter) so I can switch the wheels from the RS bike on to this one (you've got to think about practicalities...).

In terms of look, I am more thinking something like this:

Sorry don't like that it looks messy & cluttered, would look better with an air cooled motor IMO
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  #6  
Old 09-Oct-2009, 12:39 PM
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DSC Member Monty Monty is offline
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Bikes: 1100S Multistrada, 450RT, Gilera Nordwest, Bultaco Frontera, Rickman Metisse-being built!
 
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Mood: Growing old-DISGRACEFULLY!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz
Sorry don't like that it looks messy & cluttered, would look better with an air cooled motor IMO

Philippe, 1000DS based special will give you 100-120bhp depending on what you do to it. Jimbers FO42 has 120bhp which is probably the most developed twinspark around-Sparky has 108bhp. The main thing with the twinspark engine is the torque-sparky has about 78ftlbs now but the 'curve' is actually more of a flat..............huge drivability from 4000rpm upwards. The main downside is the rev limiter-ste at 8750 as standard and it's a 'hard' limiter-like running into a wall. If Sparky doesn't sell I will get the ecu remapped to raise the limiter to 9500 which will make a lot of difference on track.
As Kev-Skidlids-said to me the other day-'if I was thinking of building a Pierobon I would buy Sparky as a base-most of the work has already been done'

John


Growing old-disgracefully!
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  #7  
Old 09-Oct-2009, 07:23 PM
phillc phillc is offline
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I have a 1000DS race bike that's for sale. Engine build by Nelly, head work done by Chris Steadman.

Engine was originally from a Multistrada, but had 1000DS cases fitted so it would go in a 900SS frame.

Details here:

http://kapitalmoto.com/index.php/new...ts/60-it-lives - about 100bhp on the dyno, as a standard 1000cc without big bore, high comp pistons, some head work.

1098 slipper clutch, carbon belt covers, engine repainted because it was looking tired. Phone Nelly for the full run down on what he did.

Bike has various bits and pieces fitted that you probably won't need, and I'm happy to part the thing out if you only want the engine, loom and ECU.

In all honesty, engine probably needs pulling apart (or at the very least compression tested) as last time out at Cadwell, there was a substantial amount of oil coming out the overflow. Initial diagnosis suggests new rings may be required.

Get in touch, because I'm looking for 996 bits and PM'd you on another site. PM, call or come around to my garage for a look if you're interested.







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  #8  
Old 09-Oct-2009, 07:29 PM
phillc phillc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pguenet
In terms of look, I am more thinking something like this:

More info on the Radical Ducati here:

http://www.radicalducati.com/index.php?page=rad

All in French too! ;-)

Check out the videos here:

http://kapitalmototv.co.uk/play-136-0.html

http://kapitalmototv.co.uk/play-191-0.html

I can put you in touch with Manu if you like.
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  #9  
Old 09-Oct-2009, 09:36 PM
pguenet pguenet is offline
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Thanks guys

I know what you are saying Monty. I would not have the outlay for Sparky right now (next year maybe) and more importantly to be perfectly honest I would feel ashamed breaking Sparky just to collect engine, looms and Throttle bodies. That's just sacrilege. But please do let me know if you end up parting it (though I doubt very much that you would ever do that).

Re Radical - I have been in touch with them already. They do some other work with ST2 engines (Montjuich) and 1000DS (standard RAD02) but I don't like that one much. I am sure they could sort out a Montjuich with a 1000DS too. But they work from their own frame or 749/999 frame. They are Spanish though.

Thanks for the info Phil. I'll try and read your U2U from elsewhere.

To my initial point, does anybody know if a 1000DS (Multistrada engine) is a straight fit in 998 frame?
I would think that the mounting points for engine mountings to Frame & swingarm would work. But I am not sure about fitting the Throttle bodies in relation to the cross member. Does anybody know?

p

Last edited by pguenet : 09-Oct-2009 at 10:35 PM.
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  #10  
Old 09-Oct-2009, 10:55 PM
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DSC Region Organiser skidlids skidlids is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillc

I can see my downpipes
Phil have you any idea when you will no longer need to borrow them
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