Ducati Sporting Club UK > General > Idle Chat > Government and pay as you drive

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by Steve M

don't forget that everthing you buy has to be transported, even stuff that goes on trains will normally have some time on a HGV. If transport costs rise then so does the cost of the end product. Also this tax would not apply to foriegn trucks, making it even harder for British companies.

So we introduce a system where foreign trucks need a special test and licence to run on UK roads but at a price. This would have 2 benefits, protect our haulage and get rid of unsafe foreign trucks and drivers who don't understand our roads or language.

All goods would end up on smaller vans doing shorter runs, picked up from local marshalling yards, its how the rest of europe does it, check out those long trains you see heading to the south of france or germany from the ports with containers on, how many lorries does each account for and how much congestion does it safe?

We'd lose out on some of the overnight delivery stuff but reduction in HGV's on road would more than make up for that.

oh, one small problem, it relies upon an efficient rail network which the rest of Europe has but we got rid of

[Mr_S]

Listened to the Transport Secretary justifiying himself on the Today program a couple of mornings ago. He let out that a similar scheme for HGV's was imminent, as they were seen to be a major cause of congestion.

Also, he stated that the £1.30 charge would be for heavily congested roads e.g. central london and that a typical motorway mile would be sub 10p. ( although in 10 years time £1.30's probably going to buy the same as 10p today).

It's a bad idea, but bring it on why, because it's really easy to defeat in it's planned form. GPS Signals are notoriously susceptible to blocking, and so the thinnest of lead sheets would make you "disappear" or stop travelling. Gyro technology and direct integration with speed sensors etc would allow for some dead reckoning, but isn't 100% accurate, and you can't bill someone because you think they may have used the road.

Then there's the issue of map data and its accuracy. TomTom use TeleAtlas maps, which are probably the most up to date of the lot, and have just release version 5, which still has roads missing from it after 5 years. It's only in the last 6 months the TeleAtlas and NavData maps have included the M6 toll road. So, until maps can be 100% accurate, they can't use them for charging.

Distribution of equipment is another issue, force manufacturers to fit the kit? Retro fit kits for older vehicles. It'll have a standard interface, and when it's released, within 6 months it'll be hacked, guaranteed

How will you be charged? Weekly, monthly, annually? Will the box attempt to upload the data on your journey in real time or at regular intervals? How will it do this? Cellular network? Another way to spoof or block transmissions, easy to upload false data using a clean clone of your actual box.

Don't even get me started on Civil liberties.

Keep the current tax system, it provides a mechanism to indicate that the vehicle has been insured and MOT'd, or transfer it to a US type system where you pay tax for your number plates (tags)

Obviously, the good ideas club have got together again to justify themselves.

You could also bear in mind hw much this would cost to implement, removing the cost of the black box ( £100ish?) think of the backend infrastructure required to track, in real time, the tens of millions of vehicles in the UK, and the resource required to generate those bills on a monthly basis.

Want to reduce congestion, get companies to review their attitudes towards flexible and remote working, stop parents driving their kids to a school less than 2 miles away. Oh, and invest the revenue taken in road tax and fuel duty and re-invest it in the transport system instead of Quango's. IIRC it's less than 10% that's returned to the roads...

[Steve M]

HGV tax is pretty heffty as it is.

cost

and is it really a way of getting vehicles of the road, or just raising more revenue?

[AK]

I think it would also be a hit in the pocket for us 'hobbyists' who are going racing etc - can you imagine the costs of going to Cadwell etc.

Also, think of the extra costs when going to visit granny/go on hols etc in the UK

JPM:I agree with your 'tax at the pumps'

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by CK and AK


JPM:I agree with your 'tax at the pumps'

the problem with taxing fuel is that it hits the rural economy hardest. My GF travels 25 miles to work each day on a road without traffic, its the nearest large town to where we live so she's got no options if she wants to do the job she studied for. She does her best to save costs with a small diesel engine and she doesn't cause congestion as theres no traffic on the road yet she'd suffer if you increase duty on fuel. The purpose of the proposal is to remove congestion so charges would be higher on busy routes at different times of day, fuel tax doesn't allow for this.

The easiest system is more toll roads, different charges for different vehicles, time of day and distance travelled. the problem can be that traffic then looks for a cheaper route so the A roads get crowded, so you need implement it on A roads at same time hence the chip in car solution proposed.

I agree with all JPM's points on the problems that'll come with it

[rcgbob44]

Your all missing one vital point: Alistair Darling is a complete Ar*ehole. he has no idea whatsoever regarding traffic and the roads and along with that criminal Ken Livingstone has done his utmost to copulate the road systems.

Livingstone alters the roads to cuase conjestion then charges people for using the roads in an attempt to make us believe he`s working hard to reduce congestion.

I have seen so many roads where I live that have been reduced to one lane in each direction when thay used to be two lanes in each direction. We`ve seen the phasing of traffic lights altered to cause conjestion, we`ve seen roads narrowed to cause conjestion then by passes built to relieve the created conjestion, who`se getting all the back handers?

Don`t make any mistake about Mr Alistair (anal) Darling, he`s not interested in traffic flow, only how to make money out of road users.

There, i`ve said my bit!

[JPM]

Well they would be scrapping road tax so depending on how many miles an individual does on a tolled road, you could end up better off... imagine someone who's got say a caterham, probably does a 1000 miles a year, but still has to tax it for 12 months, or sorn it etc, for someone like that it would be beneficial I guess if the tax was just on fuel.

There are pros and cons to every argument here, the government want to reduce congestion by pricing people and businesses out of the market, rathr than address problems such as public transport etc

[rcgbob44]

JPM

Do you really beleive thay will scrap raod tax and duty on fuel, time to wake up!

In most european country`s they open up the roads to let the traffic flow easily and hence reduce congestion

[guest1]

I say bring it on. Not cos I want it, but simply because there could then be a mass "no drive" day whereby there would be no fees generated as oppose to the current system where everyone is taxed every twelve months irrespective of road usage.

It seems to be that we are all falling for the old Maggie Thatcher trick whereby they hit us with a major kick in the goolies, then give us just a little bit back to make us feel as though we've achieved something.
Anyone remember the council tax disputes - mine was due to rise from £100 a year to £900 a year. then they capitulated to bring it down to £400 a year - and I felt happy How dumb was that?

[JPM]

Originally posted by rcgbob44
JPM

Do you really beleive thay will scrap raod tax and duty on fuel, time to wake up!

In most european country`s they open up the roads to let the traffic flow easily and hence reduce congestion

See here