Ducati Sporting Club UK > General > Idle Chat > faith in the justice system ?

[TP]

(on soldiers being on the front line, if the sh*t hits the fan..)
Fair point, but they exceeded their role on this one. The country was never at risk. even with insight, we were never threathened.
The troops still had a choice to go. basically, your friends prefered to see a little country and bomb a few inocent civilians for the "good of the country", rather than to see a court martial for refusing to obey orders. I personally would have taken the court, if i had been involved in there in the first place. This is very harsh and simplistic, but thats the way i feel about it. There is a lot of difference beween two soldiers when one of them is fighting a just war, and the other one isnt.
and if becoming a professional soldier means giving up your personal judgemnent about whats right or wrong... what can i say, they chose it ! they have decided to become just a tool, in my eyes. Hence the dilemna for becoming a soldier.

Stef, I'm absolutely flabbergasted by your view on this. It must be so nice living in your black and white world where decisions are so easy. If this is your stance then there is no point having a discussion with you on this because your world has different realities.

But I wish you wouldn't denigrate the efforts of soldiers like this, you have no idea how much choice they have or how much information they have to base any decision on in the first place. A Private soldier really is a mushroom, kept in the dark .... I'm sure you know the rest.

[stef]

I agree completely on your last point, which is why i would not want to become one !
If i did became one, i might as well get lobotomised. a little self-inflicted, if you ask me !
but each to their own.

As for my world being black and white (again, a personal attack ! thats 2 already in this thread.. can we get a little more original ??), i have just been thought what was right and wrong. it's not that difficult. A lot of french soldiers laid on the train tracks when the sh*t hit the fan with the algerian independence war...I am not inventing anything. Ali refused to go, maybe that brings it closer to home.

the problem is for me that those soldiers have given up their freedom of judgment. willingly. I am not saying they are wrong, i am just not feeling sorry for what they are going through.

[stef]

This is a Christian Country if those who come over here dont like our laws and religion then they should Bugger back off to a country that suits their religion.
I dont see the French liking their imigration policys at the moment and it wont be long before it spreads over here.
just remember where the tube bombers were recriuted Mosques. [/quote]

erm.. i'll just ignore this..and just advise you to a history book which covers more than the last two centuries !
no offence meant.

[TP]

Originally posted by stef
As for my world being black and white (again, a personal attack ! thats 2 already in this thread.. can we get a little more original ??),

Me saying your world is black and white is far from a personal attack. I was a soldier for 7 years so I know what I went through, and I never saw active service so I can only imagine the additional pressure these poor *******s have to go through in short timeframes. They don't have the benefit of lengthy debate and thought processes and are often performing at less than peak physical conditions due to lack of sleep, stress etc ...

But I digress - this isn't going anywhere and I really don't like this thread.

TP bowing out ....

[ScottyB]

Gracefull TP, like your style.

I am like a coiled spring on this one but am choosing to keep it zipped for the sake of all.

Regards

ScottyB

[gaz3014]

Originally posted by stef
I agree completely on your last point, which is why i would not want to become one !
If i did became one, i might as well get lobotomised. a little self-inflicted, if you ask me !
but each to their own.

As for my world being black and white (again, a personal attack ! thats 2 already in this thread.. can we get a little more original ??), i have just been thought what was right and wrong. it's not that difficult. A lot of french soldiers laid on the train tracks when the sh*t hit the fan with the algerian independence war...I am not inventing anything. Ali refused to go, maybe that brings it closer to home.

the problem is for me that those soldiers have given up their freedom of judgment. willingly. I am not saying they are wrong, i am just not feeling sorry for what they are going through.

I cant believe what I've just read!!! Lobotomised!! Now your taking the p$*"s!!!

I'm still serving, and have been involved in both of the 'gulf wars'. I was based in Basra, and saw for myself the mess that the country is in. Having been involved with local people, the vast majority of people wanted and needed us there, and the only people who didn't had something to loose, ie the criminal element.
Yes, I felt like a piggy in the middle, but something had to be done.

As for relying on the international community (UN) to do something, is this the same group who stood by and watch as Bosnia and the rest of the Balkans were torn apart, and millions murdered?????

Sorry guys, but this has wound me up, and some people need to wake-up, and smell the coffee!!!! There is life outside of there mushrooms!!!



This is Gaz signing off to get his Teddy back!!!!!

[Edited on 7-11-2005 by gaz3014]

[Paul James]

Originally posted by TP

Me saying your world is black and white is far from a personal attack. I was a soldier for 7 years so I know what I went through, and I never saw active service so I can only imagine the additional pressure these poor *******s have to go through in short timeframes. They don't have the benefit of lengthy debate and thought processes and are often performing at less than peak physical conditions due to lack of sleep, stress etc ...

But I digress - this isn't going anywhere and I really don't like this thread.

TP bowing out ....

At the risk of sounding contentious I feel the need to point out that we don't have conscription in this country so all in the forces are there by choice. From what I can make of it the lifestyle is pretty reasonable during times of peace and at the end of the day if you sign up for the job you do have to accept that you'll have to actually do it one day. I sympathise with the fact that they have been used innapropriately on this occasion but anyone with one eye open should be in fear of what B.Liar will dream up next in direct opposition to what this country wants.

I don't feel that what went on was warranted it was just another show of "strength" which has backfired and caused us all far more danger from terrorist activities.

[stef]

i am sorry, gaz and TP, if i p*ssed on your chips. i dont mean to wind you up, even if that's what i end up doing. I know i can sound like a right tw*t sometimes. I guess we both feel very strongly about this.

one of the things i hate the most is being manipulated and lied to. This has happened more than once (including the first gulf round, i was in favour of going in). since then, i guess i have become a little too analytical/cynical/bitter for my own good. and reading a little more about the situation than what you get on sky news just enfuriates me.

I appreciate what you are saying, about helping the people on the field. but do you feel that the quality of life in Irak is better now than it was 13 years ago ? I work with a well qualified iraki dicident who left home when it started stinking, in 90. he got back last year, but didnt stay very long, and soon returned to the UK. unfortunately, all the good that you are trying to achieve and the help that your are giving people is needed due to the destructive actions from another soldier/platton/army and 10 years of sanctions.. dont get me started on the food for oil program.
13 years on, irak is in a worse state than ever. a sadistic ruler was removed, to be replaced by a corrupt government, mob rule, and a massive debt. That's now.. lets wait a couple of years until another sadistic ruler steps in, and its back to square one. you cant bomb democracy into a nation. historically, it has NEVER worked. whatever you feel you are achieving on the field, i am not sure it translate very well on a global scale.

mind you.. private US companies are having a good time sharing the reconstruction contracts.

feel free to try and convince me otherwise. you are probably the first person i talked to directly who has seen both conflicts.

[philthy]

Stef

Keep posting - it makes for a lively forum!

What you have to consider though is that for many young men the army or the other services is their only option for a reasonably well paid career.

The scenario they are now involved in is just about the worst one possible for them to deal with.

You don't know who is the enemy and my personal view is that if this is how he wants to fight then you take the fight to him and fight on his level. Quarter given? If you are sure he is a bad guy then use summary justice.

I would encourage my son to join the T.A. as a front line soldier as I think life is a risk anyway and I now realise that I missed my vocation in life and want him to explore as many career options as he can. If he then decided on an army career then I would support him fully.

As to whether this is a just war - I honestly don't know but I have studied the first and second world wars and can tell you that if I was a front line soldier I would be very upset if the people back home did not support me while I was risking my life in Iraq.

Also a point to consider is that these soldiers may well be '' drawing fire '' away from this country and protecting us indirectly by becoming targets in Iraq instead of the terrorists coming here to attack us.

Phil

[stef]

yes, but the reasonably well paid career comes at a human price, and a compromise: if given the orders, would i be able to do something that is wrong ? am i willing to be a cog in a machine of destruction (excuse the flowery language!) controlled by greed, for the benefit of a few ?
of course, as it was pointed out, the army is not just that. unfortunately, anyone who enroll would have to be prepared to be part of it. especially given the actual state of the world. I am not judging anyone enrolling, i just cannot feel for them, the same as they cannot have thought about the misery that they have the potential to spread. but i am just repeating myself here.

The country lacks teachers/nurses, doctors and i forget a few..so i dont agree, there are other reasonably well paid carrers.

bu yeah, this scenario is the worst they could have faced. same as someone playing russian roulette. there is a outcome you dont really want to see.


for your next comment, you dont know who the enemy is. granted, but shifting the blame on SH or afghanistan was a crafty piece of work. There are still no proof to this day that bin laden was involved in planing/funding 9-11. nor there are proofs that indeed, the taliban was giving him shelter.
the so called underground base were pure invention. there were no link between SH and 9-11, or al kaida. but the conflict needed an ennemy. and SH was the ideal candidate. so i dont think we are taking the fight to the enemy, we invented the enemy instead. and it ties up. the 9.11 bombers lived in europe, the 7th july bombers lived in the UK. the madrid bombers were north africans.
as you say, we dont know who the enemy is.. therefore, why invade irak ??

agreed, if you are sure he is the bad guy, take him out... SH has yet to be trailed. if he really was that much of monster, he would have been trailed in 92. yet, he has already been condemmed to die. The current charge on his trial is laugheable. They want to convict him for having a few insurgent executed. those guys tried to assasinate SH, were caught, sentenced to death by trial, following iraki laws, and executed... how different is this from what bush does in texas ? who decides who the bad guy is.

and again, the 1st and 2nd world war were conscripts war. not to be compared.

on your final point, you were unfortunately proven wrong last july.

i need a chill pill.