Ducati Sporting Club UK > General > Idle Chat > IAM and RoSPA? Anyone got any experience?

[Jools]

I've only done 12 years of road riding (but only two years born again since a 19 year layoff), a couple of trackdays and CSS level 1 to 3. There are undoubtedly shed loads of more experienced, and quicker, riders out there than I am.

The discussion seems to be split down the lines of roadcraft or track training. In my humble opinion the two methods of training are not mutually exclusive, they both have their uses and I think are more closely related than has been portrayed in this thread.

Examples of where CSS style techniques help? Well, all the visual techniques - looking into the apex, choosing reference points, watching vanishing points, looking where you want to go, the drills against target fixation and the wide vision stuff are all equally applicable road or track.

Likewise, the drills on body positioning, being relaxed on the bike, moving your weight around smoothly on the bike are all good things to know wherever you're riding.

I also know from personal experience that the CSS 'hook turn' technique for dealing with a corner that tightens up on you saved me from adding to the number one biking fatality statistic, which is - middle aged born again runs wide on a fast left hander into the path of oncoming traffic and has a fatal head-on (B645 between Stonely and Staughton - you BHC guys know the one).

However, would I use the CSS deep entry points on the road? Not on a right hander unless I want to make the turn on all the crud that gathers on the outside of a bend. Left handers? Probably, if there's no traffic near my chosen turn in point.

Do I use "quick turns" on the road? Only on wider roads to practice them, and when there is no traffic about. The technique is all about countersteering very positively. The quicker you push the inside bar the quicker the bike will get to the required lean angle, the further you push the bar the greater your lean angle will be. That's fine on the track when it's as wide as most motorways, you've got plenty of room to compensate if you get it slightly wrong. On narrower roads you only have the width of a single carriageway to play with (unless you're sure you can use both sides of the road), so when you go to push the bar quickly, it's all too easy to push it too far and end up oversteering the bike. It's also too easy to remember that you can easily oversteer the bike, you over compensate for that. Consequently you only give the bar a meek and ineffective shove, and end up not steering hard or fast enough. Quick steering on the road is hard, you have to be incredibly precise and accurate, it requires loads of practise, which you can only do on the road unless you can afford loads of trackdays, a bit of a vicious circle.

I do aim to master quick steering by doing it while I'm riding very slowly. It's harder at higher speeds because it takes more force (because of the gyroscopic effect of the wheels), and therefore requires more confidence in the technique to turn the bike quick.

Having said all that. Only the visual techniques help you with all the other traffic hazzards that roads throw at you, and I would welcome the chance to get a bit more savvy about potential hazzards through IAM and Bikesafe etc even if it meant wearing a Sam Browne belt.

I would like to be a quick and safe rider on the road, I don't want to be the quick and the dead

[rockhopper]

Well said Jools. What the "Hook turn" technique?

[Jools]

Originally posted by rockhopper
What the "Hook turn" technique?

It's not rocket science, and the 'hook turn' doesn't describe what the rider does. It is simply a description of a tightening radius turn - the plan of which would look a bit more like a hook than a constant radius bend.

Basically, prior to doing the hook turn stuff, they show you how to use your outside leg to brace yourself properly against the tank, and how to keep your lower body and pelvis stable. That means that your upper body and arms will be nice and relaxed if you need to use the 'hook turn', which is just a way of positioning your body to get your upper body really low (so your chin is almost level with the inside handlebar), and be able to do it without any danger of falling off the inside of the bike cos you're hanging off.

Doing this lowers the C of G of the bike quite dramatically, and since you only need to lean a bike to counteract the centrifugal force trying to flip you over to the outside of the bend, it enables the turn to be tighter without dramatically increasing your lean angle (thus retaining the larger contact patch and grip of a more upright tyre).

Weighting the outside peg also helps to lower the C of G and brace yourself into the bike so that you can use your arms to steer quicker and more forcefully.

That's how I remember it anyhow, some more experienced CSS'ers might pick me up on some of the things I might have forgotten, and Andy Ibbott's copyright police are probably after me right now

[rockhopper]

I need to print that out and study it!

I fiond that things like that only work if you make them become second nature. if you have to think about it then its too late.

I one had a Skoda Estelle(!!) We came over the brow of a hill and there were a queue of cars in the road where there shouldnt have been! I hit the brakes and the front wheels locked up. Luckilly the camber of the road dragged us into the kerb rather than into the back of a car but it was my own fault for not getting off the brakes and pumping the pedal.

Well i went over and over that incident in my mind for quite a few weeks. Then a while later the same thing happened. Car infront pulled up a bit quick, i braked and front wheels locked (no weight on the front of a Skoda you see), well without even thinking about it i took my foot off the pedal and pumped it and i stopped with no drama.

I tray and do the same with biking. If i go into a corner a bit quick and dont brake, i just lean it some more and look where i want to go. This has become instinctive for me. I guess its what they call a conditioned reflex.

[yellow916]

I would definitely recommend the IAM. I joined the Cambridge group and have been out with them a few times. Never seen a Sam Browne. There are a few big BMW's, but the owners tend to ride huge distances (more in a day than I would ride in a week!) and you wouldn't choose a Duke for that. At least one of them has a 748 as well. And they don't hang about, but what is more impressive is the way they make going fast look so effortless. The general philosophy seems to be always observe 30 limits, usually 40 and 50, national speed limits - it's your license! My observer said more than once something to the effect of "Why do you own a 150mph bike and ride so f****** slowly" He rode a Blackbird and I couldn't stay anywhere near him when he was trying...

Go visit your nearest group and ask for an observed ride - won't cost you anything except maybe a bit of pride!

I did CSS Level 1 last year and will do Level 2 on April 8 (anyone going that day?). I agree with what others have said - there is a surprising amount that is common to road and track, but also some things that you wouldn't use often on the road. Money well spent IMHO.

A

[rockhopper]

I never had a go at your cars!


My old skoda was a fantastic car. Changing gear gear didnt make it go any faster, it just made the engine quieter.

Never got stuck in the snow or mud either and how many cars these days have a priming lever on the fuel pump or a grease nipple on the water pump!!



I can feel a lot of skoda jokes coming on!!!

[Michael J]

As Humphrey Bogart said in Casablanca, "This could be the start of a beautiful new thread"

[rockhopper]

Yes... but it also the had the radio aerial built into the sunroof so it couldnt get vandalised.

And it was a lovely orange colour.

I once went into the garage and said "Have you got a petrol cap for a Skoda?" The man looked at me and said "Yeh, that sounds like a fair swap"

[LesPaul]

Back on topic, If anybody is interested in the IAM I'm organizing a evening for the Nottingham IAM to come over and give us a presentation, followed by an assesment ride for those interested in doing the IAM skills for life package, keep an eye on the rideout and meets section in a couple of weeks .

And as for Skodas watch out for them, some have over 200bhp and are driven by the boys in blue but with no markings

Darren

[Edited on 1-3-2004 by 748daz]

[Andyl]

I haven't read in detail the whole thread so if I am repeating someone else please forgive me. One thing I have not seen mentioned is attitude. I have been an observer for the IAM and am currently observing with my local RoSPA group. I have also had track training with the CSS and do many track days. Some of the skills are interchangeable as mentioned but a rider can have all the training in the world and be technically very competant but if he has the wrong attitude in terms of other road users and his own mortality then it is useless.

In summary I'd say get some training with RoSPA / IAM and then use it sensibly balanced with a zest for the things that make biking fun.