Ducati Sporting Club UK > Sport > Trackdays & Race Schools > Quick turning

[Jools]

Picking up a topic from the body position thread, how do you get on with quick turning?

I've done CSS through to level 3 and I know the theory - quick push on the inside bar to get the bike turning then relax and let the bike steer itself. How far you push the bar is how far the bike will lean, how quickly you push it is how quickly the bike will get to that lean angle.

So in theory, you approach a bend at just the right speed and in the right gear, look at the apex (or other RP's if the apex is blind), turn the bike quickly with a quick push on the bar and wind the throttle on smoothly all the way through the turn. Do all that right and you should clip the apex perfectly and (given all the other body position stuff is right) get a good exit and drive out of the corner.

In practise, I find quick turning the hardest thing to get right. I've lost the front end and lowsided twice when I've been trying to do a perfect quick turn on track. I've got something wrong, either still being on the brakes (don't think I was) or not relaxing enough after the quick prod on the bars and letting the bike lean until I rode of the edge of the tyre or somehow loading the front too much. I'm quite prepared to buy into the quick turn theory, but the practise of it is a leap of faith for me and I still feel some trepidation trying to do it right. After some perseverance I suppose I can now do it moderately well, if a little nervously, on track.

I was interested to see Andy Ibbott say that you could practise on the road as well as the track, and since I can't afford too many track days, that's where I've done most of my practise, but perhaps that's also why I'm not making the progress I want to. I find quick turning on the road is as hard as hell. For a start, the carriageway is only about 8-9 feet wide on an A or B road, then you can take a few inches off that on either side to account for all the gravel and crap near the kerb and the cats eyes in the middle. Then there are all the road hazards to deal with, such as all the bumps and the tramlines from heavy traffic, the manhole covers (why do they put so many of those on an ideal line for bikes) and assorted white lines, plus of course the inconsistency of the grip that you can expect with Farmer Palmer spreading muck about and those little banks of gravel that inexplicably end up in the middle of the carriageway.

So because of the narrow width and all the assorted hazards there's not much margin for error when you're trying out quick steering on the road (OK you could use both sides of the road if you can see clearly all the way through the bend and there's absolutely no traffic) and I've found that when you try it the control inputs that you have to make are minute. You have to push the bar quickly, but not very far in most cases and there is a tendency to overcook it and have to sit the bike up again because you're steering too deep

There is almost a natural tendency when you shove the bar quicker to also push it harder and further than it needs to go, then you try and compensate for that and end up not doing enough. Then of course for me there's that demon inside my head that says "Jools if you push that bar too quick you're gonna lose the front again", so I have my own battles with exorcising that particular gremlin

Anyway, enough rambling, how do you do it?

[Edited on 12-7-2005 by Jools]

[Whele]

Jools unless it was wet, I venture to suggest its practically impossible to loose the front end just by turning the bike quickly on a steady throttle position-on a track.

I would suggest that maybe you held the front brake for too long into the turn or you maybe rolled off the throttle a bit violently, both would transfer the weight onto the front, loading up the tyre and reducing grip.

As for the gremlin-I'm sure its a confidence thing, practice is the only way to overcome it. I now have the same thing about getting on the power too hard on the exit after my recent off.

[Rattler]

I'm not sure that this is really a "prod" on the bars - more of a controlled push - the movement is quite minimal in fact. As you say, its the speed that this is achieved which dicates how quickly you turn.

I struggled with this for a while, until I realised that I was in fact tensing up on the bike before I initiated this (probably as a result of braking) and resisting this movement by tightening my grip on both bars and actually controlling (or preventing) the movement of the inside bar, by gripping the outside bar too tightly.

At a recent CSS day I cured this by actually moving my hand away from the outside bar completely (just a cm or so, whilst still covering the bar) and only applying pressure to the inside bar. Didn't help much with the pickup though!!!!

HIH
Tim

[TP]

Could be a number of things, as Tim and Gary say above.

One thing though, especially seeing as it's becoming an issue for you, is tension. When you get tense you grab the bars, it's a survival reaction. I wouldn't mind betting that you're hanging on to the bars a bit tight, weighting the inside bar and/or not relaxing after the push. Remember there's two steps to the counter steer, a push and a relax. The bike will settle into it's own line if you have no input into the bike so it stands to reason that you are forcing the bike to do something it doesn't want to do.

The only way to really find out what is happening is to have someone following you when you try the quick turn to see what is happening. In the meantime - try practising the quick turn and making a conscious effort to relax. Even go so far as to flap your arms before and after - it might look and feel stupid but it's a good physical reminder for you and will help you relax.

[TP]

Oh and remember to breath deeply. It will help you relax as well.

[dickieducati]

Originally posted by TP
Oh and remember to breath deeply. It will help you relax as well.

yeah, especially if you have suddenly mastered quickturns and find yourself heading for the nearest verge/field interchange!

[TP]

Originally posted by dickieducati

yeah, especially if you have suddenly mastered quickturns and find yourself heading for the nearest verge/field interchange!

Which I have done! I did it in the race at Castle Combe and went onto the grass INSIDE the apex!! It just goes to show what you really can do when you concentrate on quick turning properly.

Dom saw it all and thought it was quite funny!

[desmojen]

Jools, is quick turning a bit of a misnomer do you think?
The whole point of it is that they want you to square the corner off for maximum traction and minimum lean, but I think you can get too caught up in the 'quick' part of that.
Are you aware, normally, of your countersteering? Probably not, yet you are doing it or else you would not be turning. The point is I think you should think of it more as a 'positive' input than a quick one.
A good way to practise feeling this is to find a good, fast bit of road, with a few nice sweepers in it. Go up and down, faster and faster until you can physically feel yourself pulling and pushing the bars ( I find you need to be going pretty fast for this!) and then you will find the feel you need to do it.
I think it's pretty damned easy to overdo it with the countersteering in slower corners and I'm guessing you fell down at slower ones right?

Of course, Andy will come along and tell you I'm talking arse, but it works for me

[Jools]

Whoa Jen, spot on...

I actually do countersteer. I'm quite aware of it and, as you say, in the faster sweepers I conciously steer the bike this way. Actually, if it's not heresy, I find I have better control if I pull the outside bar at the same time as I push the inside bar, that way the physical effort feels more balanced. Not that the physical effort is huge, it's just a bit like steering a car with one hand, you can do it but probably not as precisely as when you use both hands on the wheel.

Anyway, your insight into the slower corners is absolutely right, these are the ones that I find more difficult. Usually, it's like TP says, it's easy to overdo the countersteering and end up having to sit the bike up again as you tend to slice straight over the verge, or find that the bike has just fallen into the corner. Maybe forgeting about concious countersteering on the slower stuff is the way to go and just trust that I'll go where I look.

[andyb]

I would beg to differ concerning the comparisons made between road and race track riding, although there are a lot of similarities i dont believe this should be one.

I am in the throws of looking to arrange a bit of a seminar in the not too distant future....................i wont hijack, ill start another thread.