Ducati Sporting Club UK > General > Idle Chat > faith in the justice system ?

[philthy]

Stef

You are saying that the soldier on the ground has the potential to spread misery but used correctly he can be the buffer between criminals and terrorists and the ordinary man ,woman and child who just want to get on with their lives in peace.

Yes there are other careers but sometimes, ( myself included ) people are not intelligent / educated enough to take advantage of them and will take what they think is the best option for them and their family.

My comments about the enemy were actually directed towards what our soldiers face day in - day out on the ground, rather than what has gone on higher up the chain with Blair, Bush and Saddam.

I think it would be naive to think thst the thousands of people killed and starved to death by Saddam were bad people. He was a tyrant who abused his power and would have been dealt with at the first gulf war but for the other Arab states warning us off.

Stef we can't possibly know what has been stopped from happening because of our soldiers being there , simply because it hasn't happened!

I have been involved directly in interrupting individuals activities before they had commited any crimes and felt the frustration of watching them walk away after months of intelligence gathering and hard work. But they were interrupted from commiting the crime on that particular day. Result , but nothing to measure because it had not happened.

Phil

[stef]

yes, used correctly. but i guess i am too much of a pacifist. i am well in favour of complete hand gun bans. those two issues meet, i suppose.
in this particular case, i would think that the people of irak would have been better off left to do that: get on with their life. under some nasty tyran, possibly, but at least they were relatively safer/organised than they are now. all the religious/social implications of getting rid of saddam are far from being solved.

on your second point, i would never have thought that a millitary career where you risk your life on a daily basis is a safe bet to support a familly.
as frank black said, those who can teach, those who cant teach PE. ;-)
very often, soldiers are themselves son's of soldiers, and it is more of a cultural follow up than a question of choice. but that's my humble opinion.


how could the other arab states want to save his a$$? kuwaites wanted his head, and the saudis cant stand him. so what is different this time. is he more of a murderer now than he was 10 years ago ?
i am not saying he is innocent of mass murder. what i am saying is that the first thing they are charging him with is a joke. whether they have concrete evidence for crime against humanity, i dont know, but that is not what they chose to bring him to court with this time round. Those guys he had executed, i am not saying they were bad people, i am just saying they were found guilty of trying to take SH out. whether they were right or wrong, i am not the one to say !

of course, thousand starved, and needed medicine, because of sanctions on saddam. Someone then came up with the petrol for food idea. who is the sickest ?


and on your last point, i thought we were supposed to move in to stop SH use his weapons of mass destruction.. which he didnt have.. so we know what would have happened if we hadnt moved in: nothing would have happend. we had very good no fly zones in place, he was well contained, and he didnt have a catapult to fight with. so why the need to invade ?

[philthy]

Basically, because I'm a bloke I'm away for an easy life:P

[ariel]

Stef,
Britain, or any other country for that matter cannot train and organise it's army solely with conscripts. In fact contrary to what you believe, in August 1914 there were 350,000 regular British soldiers in France and Belgium. Had this not been the case the Germans would have swept through France and most certainly without British support the French would have been driven back to the Channel ports.
In both the world wars, regulars and conscripts worked wonderfully well together. In fact the two entities complemented each other.
Stef, the profession of a soldier is an honourable one and I believe that the decisions made by B Liar have clouded the issue and tainted the honour of the British army.

[gaz3014]

Some interesting comments since I posted up last night!!! Including some which seem to suggest that people only join the Forces because they are not clever enough to apply themselves to anything else. So are we all stupid then????

Stef, It's quite interesting what you say about people joining-up, because of family ties. My dad served 23 years. But from being at school, all I wanted to do was to join the Army. And I think I have more than 2 brain cells, due to some of the technical aspects of my career. (Nothing you said by the way Stef!!!)
I'm very proud of what and who I am, and who I represent: My country!!!

I know the risks involved, but that doesn't make it any easier when I have to leave my wife, and 10 year old daughter.

I dont know what else to say guys, 'cept I know that some politicians aren't whiter than white, but the guys on the ground are not the bad guys. Also, in my view, Iraq has little to do with all the recent attacks world wide! Have people forgotten where the 7/7 bombers originated from, and also the foiled bombing??? Not Iraq, thats for sure.

All in the name of blind religous belief!!!!

[Edited on 8-11-2005 by gaz3014]

[888heaven]

erm.. i'll just ignore this..and just advise you to a history book which covers more than the last two centuries !

No offence taken Stef
Lively debate I never take offence to anyones opinion unless they have tinted blinkers on and they cant see the christmas lights for darkness that Europe is decending into.
The Trojan horse comes to mind is that far enough back into history imigration is Europes Trojan.
If theres one thing that History can tell us is that different religions dont mix in close quarters.
Romans/ Jesuits
Balkans
Ireland
Elizabeth 1st Catholics/Protestants.
The list is endless and theres only going to be one winner.
Just visit the Arab European League.

As for History books Ive got quite a few thanks Stef
Battles in Britain 1066-1746 William Seymour/A History Of Warfare by Montgomery Of Alamein are both good reads as is the SOE by M.R.D Foot.
I have about 300 + books covering WW1/2 Korea/Vietnam.
100years war the Crusades.
Im also a member of the NFAS which promotes the use of the LongBow of which I have 3 and its History R Hardy is a patron.
ian

[stef]

Ariel,
by conscript war, i meant that the majority of combat was fought by conscripts, as opposed to a war of professional soldiers.. fair enough, the vast majority of those didnt really have a clue about what was going on, in terms of who was fighting who, and what for. But both my grand parents did (or at least they pretended to).
I personally disagree that the profession of soldier is an honorable one. fighting an honorable war is different. a soldier surenders himself to be used and abused. that's how i see it anyway. I am not saying they are bad folks either...

and you are right, blair's decision did cloud the issue, but the millitary remains what it is, a government tool. it was abused. but then, we live in a democracy, we cannot, as a nation, blame everything on blair, he was elected...and reelected.

Ian,
you are going off a little ;-)
i could just say that the IRA, mafia, basques separatists, corsicans and other greek communists have blown more things up than people seem to remember. they are not arabs or muslims... people always need something to put their insecurity on, it was UFOs in the 50s, this time round, it's on the arab. it's human nature. it helps to focus the fear on something tangible, and that in itself is rearuring. just take it easy !

[Paul James]

Originally posted by stef
yes, used correctly. but i guess i am too much of a pacifist. i am well in favour of complete hand gun bans.

Perlonker !!!, it's people who adopt that sort of attitude who have let this country become the dump it now is, the hand gun ban was a political sop to the public and has served no useful purpose. People who wanted to collect or legitimately use hand guns can no longer do so yet hand gun related crime has since escalated dramatically. Typifies the unworkable legislation foisted on us of late; the responsible majority being hamstrung to try and control the minority who will never act reasonably. It doesn't work and never will.

Ironically the hand gun ban should have rendered the UK as a non starter in the bid to host the olympics as we can't hold the pistol shooting events legally. Unfortunately that was conveniently forgotten so London looks like being lumbered with it.

[gaz3014]

Originally posted by stef
Ariel,
by conscript war, i meant that the majority of combat was fought by conscripts, as opposed to a war of professional soldiers.. fair enough, the vast majority of those didnt really have a clue about what was going on, in terms of who was fighting who, and what for. But both my grand parents did (or at least they pretended to).
I personally disagree that the profession of soldier is an honorable one. fighting an honorable war is different. a soldier surenders himself to be used and abused. that's how i see it anyway. I am not saying they are bad folks either...

and you are right, blair's decision did cloud the issue, but the millitary remains what it is, a government tool. it was abused. but then, we live in a democracy, we cannot, as a nation, blame everything on blair, he was elected...and reelected.

Ian,
you are going off a little ;-)
i could just say that the IRA, mafia, basques separatists, corsicans and other greek communists have blown more things up than people seem to remember. they are not arabs or muslims... people always need something to put their insecurity on, it was UFOs in the 50s, this time round, it's on the arab. it's human nature. it helps to focus the fear on something tangible, and that in itself is rearuring. just take it easy !

Sorry Stef, but youv'e gone too far!!! Like it or not, there are weak people and strong people. FACT!!! Therefore, if it wasn't for people like me defending, or ready to defend people like you, I wonder what sort of life you would have???? When the Falklands was invaded, what did you think?? "Oh well, lets see if we can talk them into changing there minds, and leaving"!!!!! Yeah, right!!

Oh, and I wasn't pointing at Muslims alone. One way or another, differant beliefs come into every conflict in history.

Catholics/protestants.
So called arian race.
communism/democracy.
muslims/christians

The list goes on!!

Who do you think maintains democracy. Debate???

So dont go disrespecting those who have given the ultimate sacrifice, for what you enjoy. And I dont mean my generation. I hope I'm wrong but that is the impression i'm getting from you.

I wont be coming back to this thread, cos some people are talking b&*"!"&ks, and it's getting too far!!!

[Edited on 8-11-2005 by gaz3014]

[stef]

i disagree.
if you want to get all statistical, checkout the US: relax gun laws, 4 times the population (roughly) but 300 times the number of people killed by firearms (28 000 people !!!), fair enough, half of them were suicides... still, scary numbers.
http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

http://www.crimeinfo.org.uk/servlet/...ory=factsheets

only 97 people were shot dead in the uk in one year. so a small number of dead people is a big purcentage increase. this increase is mainly due to other crimes increasing, related to firearms, i.e: gang, drugs etc..not really your average joe type of thing. and i dont know how many of those were suicides...it could well be that their was 2 times less hand guns lying around, and 2 time less homicides, but 4 times more people got depressed and decided to shoot themselves..stats are a funny thing. especially in the hand of professional spinners !

"it doesnt work and never will"
it worked in nz:
http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

but this is a completely different topic...seriously, we live in a crowded place, with tensions between comunities..do you really believe that allowing people to keep firearms is a good idea ?
I have seen places in the states where you just walk into a superstore, JJB type of thing, and get out with some serious piece... pretty handy for a road rage situation !