Ducati Sporting Club UK > Sport > Trackdays & Race Schools > California Superbike School

[TP]

Originally posted by andyb

Er Clive Woodward...England international, British lion................

Yes true, but he never lifted the world cup as a player so you could argue that he achieved more as a coach than he did as a player.

[mjbayley]

I'm so glad there are so many experts here!

( X = The unknown quantity , Spurt = A drip under pressure )

[allthegearnoidea]

I did Level 1 and 2 of CSS in April at Silverstone this year. I learnt a great deal and my riding is still improving from repeated application of the drills I was taught.

I felt they were excellent value and if anything CSS tried to pack a little too much into the day. Everyone from Andy Ibbott down were very committed to everyone getting the best from their experience.

All the instructors I had were good teachers and were able to get me to think about the issues with my riding. Their experience levels clearly varied but they were all enthusiatic, communicative and determined to make sure I was convinced on the points they were making.

Each lesson/drill was related back to chapters in the book and a brief instruction manual such that I have been able to think and read around the lessons subsequently.

Overall my riding feels faster,safer,smoother and I feel more in charge of the bike.

At a philosophical level a young teacher can certainly be a good teacher. A lack of experience does not preclude the formation of an articuilate and effective teacher. However, humility is undoubtedly a prerequisite for learning and if your attitude going into the course is not humble I suspect you won't get your full value for money.

Attendees varied from track rookies like me to committed and clearly very talented sponsored racers. Everone I spoke to seemed to have learnt a great deal form the days.

If you want to know anything else please email me your mobile number and I will give you a call.

I'm doing level 3 and 4 in July at Rockingham so maybe I could see you there.

Kind Regards

Dave

[Paul James]

Originally posted by twpd
You said you could.

I'm putting you on the spot and asking what you can teach me. I've done it several times and I've yet to hear the answer.

You can't expect me to accept in blind faith a statement that says you can make me faster. You need to back it up. It's a bit like some bloke walking in off the street and saying "I can make your network faster, more reliable and cheaper to run". You will want to know how.

Being a teacher implies that you have something to teach the student - in turn that implies that you have more knowledge and experience unless you have somehow pre-assessed the student's needs/skills/experience. As we know, this doesn't happen with CSS. Everybody no matter how good or experience goes through the same route.

Would you say the same if I was Matt Bond or Gregorio?

Anyway...this is my final post on the matter. I'm open to being proved wrong - I genuinely am but, the risk is yours. After all the CSS is trying to sell a product - if it wants me to buy then it should convince me that it's worthwhile.

Got to say that the responses you've been getting are leading me to doubt whether I'll try CSS now to be honest.

Having read the book and watched a very old video I can see the merit of the techniques but I'm not sure how well it would necessarily be put across in practice.

To learn the skills is one thing but to teach them to others in a meaningful way takes a whole different set of skills and aptitudes/attitudes ?

I believe that David Cook is/was one of the instructors, if you could book him for the day it would be a guarantee of value for money !!! He has a calm analytical manner and is very able to convey the information gained from observing to the listener, 24 carat bloke all round.

[Edited on 26-5-2006 by Paul James]

blimey ... what a thread .. I have done all 4 levels, am I quicker, yes, am I quick ?? in the great scheme of things ... no ... am I safer, more confident and more aware of the effects of my inputs to the bike and its reaction, both negatively and positively? yes, do I enjoy track time more ??? definately, for me CSS was about achieving all of the above, completing trackdays having gone quicker than before but in a far more controlled manner, no rushes of blood, no teddy bear braking, no panic .. for me that makes it worth every penny TO ME ..... simply because I aligned my goals with the coaching, made it a challenge and wanted to learn ..... take from this post what you will ...

Dibs

[phil_h]

This has been one of the all-time most entertaining threads I've read
We've got flippant, arrogant, humble (and australian ) happy, disgruntled, gagging-to-learn, too-old-to-learn, too-experienced-to-learn, hear-no-evil, see-no-evil ... I could go on for hours, but then I'd forget what I was talking about in the first place
Personally, I just want to go faster, which means understanding more about what I'm really doing, not what I think I'm doing, and I know that means I need an instructor/coach who knows how to watch properly, and I think that is what code is really focussed on. I know I can already race, thats not the thing at all - its what dibble is getting at - the challenge is - whatever your 'level' to understand how to go faster, and you just can't do that by all by yourself.
If only it wasnt so expensive for level 1, I'd have done it already.

[phil_h]

Hmmm ... maybe I'm judging what/how-little I'd get out of level 1 too harshly ?
Any comments ?
(please)

[chicken]

Originally posted by phil_h
If only it wasnt so expensive for level 1, I'd have done it already.

Said the man with 9 bikes and counting

Originally posted by phil_h
Hmmm ... maybe I'm judging what/how-little I'd get out of level 1 too harshly ?
Any comments ?
(please)

I like trackdays because of the corners, not the straights. CSS helped me to go around corners better, which makes me enjoy them more. A by-product is that I go round them faster because I am doing it better.

[Ray]

My recollections of CSS are that in the introduction its made clear it is not a race school. The aim is to improve the many and various skills you need to go round a corner safely and fast. Equally applicable to Road or track IMHO.

Sure its a good bit more than the price of a track day but driving "lessons" are £20 plus an hour now?

IMHO to get anything out of any course you need to go with an open mind, you might be of the opinion that you have learn't nothing but I'd be a bit wary of anyone who says they have nothing to learn. Sure some might see starting at the lowest level a bit beneath them but again in my opinion one of the aims is to get you to think about and analyse a little about what you are doing on the bike and how it reacts to inputs.

Ray.

[Andy Ibbott]

Where do I start?

First of all I must apologise for not jumping in sooner but time is a rare commodity for me at the moment and I wanted to read everything that was said.

For me there are 3 points here:

Road/track skills
Coaching abilities
Thomas Luthi

Road/Track skills
At CSS we teach cornering skills, we are very purist on this. For a road rider, it’s the area of greatest enjoyment and if we can help a rider do it with more confidence he will get more enjoyment from his riding.
The same applies to a Track dayer; it's the corners that create the challenges and fun.
And the racers, it’s where the lap times come down, not the straights.

So, if you want to improve your cornering for whatever reason/goal/gain this is our specialised subject - at all levels.

Coaching abilities
I feel that Johnny Haynes gave such a comprehensive answer to this (see bottom of page 5) and I have nothing more to add.
It was interesting that there were no comments, questions or response to this answer though...

Thomas Luthi
Yes he was already fast but there is a world of difference between top ten and top of the podium. In 125 this is normally 0.5 of a sec. Where could you find an extra 0.5 of a sec? Or 1 second or 10? If you are already at your limit then how do go faster?
Could he have won the Championship with out me? Could he have done it without Sepp his chief engineer? Or Honda? Or his Mental coach? Who knows...? Fact, the TEAM as a whole and a bit of luck helped him win the World title.
Did I make him faster? Yes. Did I teach him 'special' tricks? No. I'll give an example from the 2 day test in Brno I have just returned from.
In one corner he was late applying the throttle, which was affecting his time in that split.
Ok, that is what was happening. Now fil2 what would you do to help him go faster? What is the cause of the effect?

Sandro, his team mate has just spent the whole 2 days working on Throttle control. Did he find it below him? NO, frustrating maybe but in the end when we had a breakthrough he went faster.

I say this a lot but you can't change what you don't know. It is one of the facts of this life.

Let me know your thoughts, I'm around until Sunday night when we have Schools in Ireland.

All the best

Andy