Ducati Sporting Club UK > DesmoDue Race Series > DesmoDue - General Questions and Chat > Who's best to run DD - the DSC!

[Rattler]

Originally Posted by Loz

888heaven, where's your roundel? (joke!)
I have to say, your comments have struck a chord with me.

When DD was first touted to me, (I believe at Track Attack 2.5 but my memory can play tricks on me), I was led to believe that it would be for DSC Members, riding essentially unmodified bikes, and that it would be just about the cheapest way to race motorbikes.

DD in reality seems to be fairly close to that ideal, but somehow the usual racing formula that competiveness is directly porportional to expenditure applies. In my naivety, I feel sad that this is the case but I suspect it is unavoidable - unless the rules about modifications were made stricter, of course.

In truth a DD race can be won by a rider on a virtually standard bike, with only minimal modifications for race compliance. Domski's efforts are evidence of this as he rode a late Monster that had race cans and race airfilter performance mods only. And the fact that he was beaten in one race this year by Glen Graham on an older, nearer stock 620ss is further proof.

You can spend lots of money on the bike, fairings, PC111's, dyno time, trick suspension, etc, etc, but the best riders will run at the front whatever they are on.

The rules on modifications are pretty restrictive and ensure that; In DD, a slow rider on a fast bike will always be beaten by a fast rider on a slow bike.

Tim

[domski]

Originally Posted by Rattler

...he was beaten in one race this year by Glen Graham on an older, nearer stock 620ss...

I wish you lot would stop reminding me about that!!

Glenn's even more stock bike does have pipes, filter AND a chip(?) also re-valved forks which mine doesn't. Dunno what shock he's got though, it looks standard

He just rode better at the last corner - git

I agree though, a good rider on a stock bike, will beat a slow rider on a fast bike. There are some seriously fast bikes out there, I'm worried what will happen when a quick rider jumps on one!!

[Loz]

Dom & Tim
I do accept that the best rider is likely to win, whatever he/she rides, within a given set of rules, provided the difference in ability is enough to overcome the shortcomings of his bike. I also accept that a slow rider will most likely not win, no matter how much is spent, given the modification restrictions in place in DD.

I also note that in the examples quoted - Dom and Graham - the bikes are modified, performance-wise, compared to stock bikes. I've seen the amount of money quoted on the message board as having been spent on bikes by some of the competitors. My over-all impression is that a good deal of money (sometimes very serious amounts) is being spent on what is a an entry-level, grass-roots club series. Further, if you are a "middle of the road" sort of racer, you are not only going to be beaten by riders with more ability (fair enough), you may not be competitive compared to other MotR racers with more money than you (which runs against the original DD ethos as I understand it).

Still, I am somewhat re-assured that the riders themselves do not seem to feel that this is an issue.

Anyway, I'm only jealous of the DDers cos the original series was going to be for 750's (I've got one of those and was half-toying with the idea of having a go - I can't afford another whole bike).

[Loz]

Kev, thanks for your input. I am a little unclear where the line is drawn between replacing worn-out original parts with equivalent modern gear and what represents a performance upgrade. I guess that is sometimes a grey area.

I appreciate the time spent bringing me up to speed with all this.

[skidlids]

Firsty a large proportion and majority are not the same thing and some on the list are far more regular than others I was mainly thinking in terms of Class B where I would consider a third of the field aren't regular posters with some never posting.
I agree the Majority off DD riders have posted on the board, but take this thread for example over 100 posts so far of which 12 or so current DD riders have had a input and a few Ex DD riders, so about 1/3 the DD field.

If anybody is thinking of entering DD in 2007 it may be worth seeking out one of the DD regulars that doesn't post here and ask their opinion it may help you make the decision to join in.

Loz as far as upgrades go
take the items I listed.
Discs ---- have to be Ducati OE parts so little choice there
Shock --- Budget upgrade is a SSie one and at the other end of the scale there are the Ohlins, WPs, Penskes, Nitrons etc
Master-cylinders--- Budget is a 916 item or GSXR (in Zimbos case), top end is a AP Radial and just down on that a Brembo Radial.
Some people have even splashed out on a Billet Brembo Caliper, but this can often be offset by not upgrading to twin discs

[domski]

Originally Posted by Loz

My over-all impression is that a good deal of money (sometimes very serious amounts) is being spent on what is a an entry-level, grass-roots club series. Further, if you are a "middle of the road" sort of racer, you are not only going to be beaten by riders with more ability (fair enough), you may not be competitive compared to other MotR racers with more money than you (which runs against the original DD ethos as I understand it).

That's a fair statement.

I would think that the 583 comes more down to rider ability and the bikes are a whole lot cheaper too. I can't see people spending anywhere near the sort of cash that an 'affluent' 620 rider would. You're just not going to get the same gains (I wouldn't think).

Unfortunately, all racing is incredibly expensive. Whilst the running costs of DD are low, the initial outlay is much higher than other classes. You can buy a half decent 600 supersport bike for £5000, but that will probably cost £800+ a weekend and eat tyres. The other end of the spectrum (to which DD is closer) would be CB500's - bought for £300-£1200 and cost the same to run as DD. Now that is cheap racing.

The other side to racing, at any level, is that even if the rules don't permit it, people will always find ways to spend money or cheat or try to gain some sort of advantage. It happens in virtually every class, that's just human nature I suppose?

Class B does provide great value for money.

Class A will always be tougher and more expensive, as the bikes are more expensive and the faster riders race in it.

Both classes are incredibly good fun and the riders, teams and spectators on race day are a great bunch of people. That is what makes DD different/special.

[paynep]

Originally Posted by domski

Class A will always be tougher and more expensive, as the bikes are more expensive and the faster riders race in it.

Really? I notice you used faster, not better!

[domski]

Originally Posted by paynep

Really? I notice you used faster, not better!

That's right

They're only faster coz they're on faster bikes too of course

[Paul James]

Given the level of interest shown to this thread by DD entrants, general DSC members and non members alike I've added below the contents of an email I circulated to the riders earlier in the month. Just a few observations and suggestions for 2007 which I have to say I personally believe will be more likely to succeed now that certain issues have been resolved and others are being considered well in advance of the season start.

Most of the riders seem happier to go the New Era route now than when we started down that course at the start of the season, makes it much more straightforward for whoever runs the series for us next year. This year we kept getting asked to check out the other available race clubs in the UK but I think we've reached a consensus having gone through that process that New Era can offer us a workable season long package. We've already confirmed that in a meeting with Jim Parker who is very keen to work with the DSC on this next year. Chopping from race club to race club throughout the season brings its own obvious problems along with additional cost for the riders of becoming members of each club.

I see 2007 as being the best year yet for DD; we’ve got the 2006 survey results to work with so all the riders have had a chance to offer their views on a wide range of topics, to the point where they were asked to submit any questions they wanted included. We have the two first years to learn from, both the mistakes and the successes, the latter can all too easily be forgotten if we aren’t careful here.

The more everybody pitches in to help in a workable and harmonious fashion the better it will be for all IMHO. Total harmony will never exist but I truly believe that publicly propagating arguments on the message boards does more harm than good in the long term. I can’t see whoever runs the series always agreeing with the views of every rider, it just won’t happen, it’s human nature but a better way of resolving issues needs to be found.

The riders need to support whoever runs DD as it will be a big responsibility and a fair amount of administration however much it gets simplified for 2007.

I truly hope it all works out well and that at least some of what we’ve tried to achieve in 2006 will help 2007 to be the best season yet !!!! I’ve already stated that I will be stepping down from the RC prior to the 2007 season start due to increased work commitments but will be helping where possible to get the outstanding issues resolved.

My earlier email to the riders..............................

DD Review and looking forward

Post the Snetterton protest.

The technical regulations and protest rules have been tested and the complaining behind the scenes about the lack of potential rule enforcement for the series has irrefutably been answered for all time.

It is clear that the level of performance of a 620 DD bike prepared within the technical rules, ridden competently can produce the results that Dominic Cann has achieved this year. This can be retrospectively applied to the results of Geoff Spencer and to anyone in the future.

The element of doubt has been seriously reduced to the very real benefit of the series, leaving this sort of thing to fester would have eventually ripped the series apart.

Dominic and Chass have been cleared of any infringement and their championship can never be questioned, we know that this would not have been the case if the bike had not been checked, the doubts harboured by some would have festered and carried over to next year.

Dominic and Chass have exhibited a fine example of what can be achieved with determination, good preparation, consistent riding and self confidence. WELL DONE !!!!!!.

Phil Huntley put on another great show of season long consistent riding to take a well deserved win in Class B.

The people that run DD next year will have a few more stakes in the ground to start with than we had this year, the series is growing, there have been inevitable growing pains and a steep 2 year learning curve.

I’ve sent a report on what needs to be covered off administration wise to the DSC Management Team for consideration.

Here are some of my thoughts for the riders and organisers to consider:

• Should the series be run next year in line with the original ethos of providing current DSC members the opportunity to try racing in a club focused championship?, Or do you want to open it out to people outside the Ducati Sporting Club ?

If the former then it will be difficult to achieve the separate grids but the general consensus to date is that most have grown used to the mixed grids and are showing a preference to those over being stuck in with CB’s or Hornets. If the latter there is still no guarantee that enough will enter to consistently fill 2 grids, the downside of the latter option could be that the people the series was intended for could lose out to people recruited from outside the club to take part.
Maybe you could consider looking at Class A and Class B slightly differently; retaining Class B for the true novices but allowing a little more entrant experience leeway for Class A entrants ?

I’d like to suggest that some in depth discussion goes on about the fundamental format for next year. The survey questions were aimed at addressing some of the issues and the invaluable feedback will be considered at that time.

• We started off this season before everything was properly resolved, riders reps, tyre deal, race formats and dates etc. etc.

If nothing else I’d like to think that after Cadwell and into the last quarter of 2006 some thought can be given to sorting a number of the basic issues prior to the 2007 season start. These have been outlined to the MT in my report.
My gut feeling is that New Era, despite some shortcomings, are the way to go again for 2007, they will continue to offer the type of circuit the riders seem to prefer; Cadwell, Brands, Oulton, Snetterton, Donington etc.

Having met with Jim Parker again recently I can confirm that he is very happy to continue with facilitating the series for us and feels that with a bit of fine tuning the continued New Era/DSC relationship will be beneficial to all. Discussion of the option to race at Club meetings rather than at Superclub level took place during the meeting. As details of what some of the other series we shared meetings with this year will be doing in 2007 have yet to be finalised it was thought best to decide later which to run with, it is likely to be a combination of the two. In essence we have an agreement to work together in 2007 with a 6 or 7 round championship at the best UK circuits.
Being involved with New Era gave very useful assistance with the Assen license this year, the insurance was obtained at a reduced rate for us by Jim Parker in his ACU capacity, I doubt that we would have run the Assen round without assistance from the ACU. If the consensus is that we look to race at Assen in 2007 their assistance will again be vital, it was a great success in 2006 and the Dutch club are looking forward to welcoming the DSC Desmo Due enthusiasts again next year..

I have suggested that entries need to be in by the end of December so that whoever has the job of sorting it all out has a good idea of numbers involved.

The riders representatives (if you choose to continue with them) can easily be sorted by mid January.

When inviting people to apply as a riders rep. do search the full DSC membership, you never know who has been considering getting involved in helping out. It could be someone who has been to a few meetings helping out a rider for instance, or just watching the series and looking for a way of having input. If you subsequently just have riders applying at least you’ve done all possible to include others from within the club.

• Of vital importance is to line up all the people who can add value to the series in any way shape or form and get them in a room together to discuss what they can bring to the party early on in the proceedings.

Write it down and agree responsibilities for whoever has offered to cover each aspect of the series management/promotion.

You have some awesome people among you and I only wish I’d been able to pull it all together quicker and better this year. It has been a tough year and not at all perfect and I don’t mind admitting it, please learn from the mistakes and don’t make the same ones next year.

We have had some great success this year, the DD series has gone from strength to strength, a number of real issues sorted quickly to the majorities preference, the trip to Assen was a highlight for many, a number of significant and high profile guest riders and magazine articles, and the continuing improvement of the DD racers in general, posting better lap times and having a worthy champion in each class.

The DSC run Desmo Due series will prosper, we already have people showing an interest for next year, the DD riders and race teams have put together some stunning bikes and ridden some cracking races, it hasn’t gone unnoticed by others.

It is a unique series; I’m not aware of any other bike club doing this, so make the most of it, get the decision making done as early as possible and go into 2007 with a positive outlook for the year ahead.
Sincere regards,

Paul James

[Tonio600]

Originally Posted by domski

I wish you lot would stop reminding me about that!!

You wish

Originally Posted by domski

Glenn's even more stock bike does have pipes, filter AND a chip(?) re-valved forks which mine doesn't.

re-springed forks, not revalved I don't remember about the chip though, it may it may not...

Dunno what shock he's got though, it looks standard

It IS standard.

He just rode better at the last corner - git
I agree though, a good rider on a stock bike, will beat a slow rider on a fast bike. There are some seriously fast bikes out there, I'm worried what will happen when a quick rider jumps on one!!

Lucky you he can't keep it longer...