Ducati Sporting Club UK > DesmoDue Race Series > DesmoDue - General Questions and Chat > No Modifications - what does it mean

[skidlids]

Picked up a 8500 mile late 583cc Monster engine in October off Ebay for less than £300, then picked up a similar engine on New Years day for less and the guy had older 583 engines sat on his garage floor,
I'll dig the contact details out

The 1998 Monster engine in Dallas's 583 cost me £250 and without any carb work, cam timing or a like, just belts and oil/filter he was able to run at the front with Harriet at Cadwell.

The PB bike that Luke rode to a podium at Mallory had a bog stock engine, again not even a Dynojet kit and I doubt if the engine had been apart since it had left the factory in 1995.

As Paynep (humouros post Paul) well knows spending your money on track time can reap better rewards than spending it on the bike
ask yourself could another rider get your bike around the track quicker than you, if the answer is Yes, work on the riding not the bike

The problem isn't with balancing as I believe there is little to be gained for the cost involved, its the modification.
As there are two types of Crankshaft
1, unmodified
2, modified
the second group can include lightened, knife-edged, stroked and balanced, so for policing reasons Unmodified is the way to go

[nogaromill998]

I think Skids is referring to my post on Ducatisti, in my 09 prep thread, where I stated that my crank was ready to pick up after balancing. The crank and all associated parts are made with certain tolerances. When you hand the entire mass over for balancing ( crank, rods, pistons, gudgeon pins, circlips ) all thats done is to make sure that WITHIN THE FACTORY TOLERANCES the crank is not running out of balance. What I have had done is nothing to do with performance enhancement, just to try to ensure the engine doesnt fly apart. NOTHING has been lightened outside tolerances, NOTHING has been polished, its just been PUT TOGETHER PROPERLY, no more no less. Its a bog std 583 crank, with bog std 583 rods, and bog std 583 pistons, and bog std 583 gudgeon pins, and bog std everything. I have several engines and have mixed and matched parts.....so balancing is then an absolute necessity imho. NOT lightening or polishing, BALANCING. Its NOT been modified in any way shape or form, nor even has it been lightened to get to minimum factory weight, just put together to run evenly, bearing in mind it was an engine that I had bought that had been sat in a wet shed for a year, it all HAD to come apart as all the bearings needed renewing. No modifications could go so far as meaning using std gaskets instead of 3 bond for instance, or not shimming the crank to take into account the lack of gaskets today. the rules also state :
Wheels including diameter and rim width must remain as originally produced by Ducati since 1992 for the 600/620 bikes.
Front wheel 17” X 3.5”, Rear Wheel 17” X 4.5
but we all know 748/916 wheels are used......I think some common sense needs to prevail here.

[Chaz]

Originally Posted by nogaromill998

I think Skids is referring to my post on Ducatisti, in my 09 prep thread, where I stated that my crank was ready to pick up after balancing. The crank and all associated parts are made with certain tolerances. When you hand the entire mass over for balancing ( crank, rods, pistons, gudgeon pins, circlips ) all thats done is to make sure that WITHIN THE FACTORY TOLERANCES the crank is not running out of balance. What I have had done is nothing to do with performance enhancement, just to try to ensure the engine doesnt fly apart. NOTHING has been lightened outside tolerances, NOTHING has been polished, its just been PUT TOGETHER PROPERLY, no more no less. Its a bog std 583 crank, with bog std 583 rods, and bog std 583 pistons, and bog std 583 gudgeon pins, and bog std everything. I have several engines and have mixed and matched parts.....so balancing is then an absolute necessity imho. NOT lightening or polishing, BALANCING. Its NOT been modified in any way shape or form, nor even has it been lightened to get to minimum factory weight, just put together to run evenly.

According to the rules it's illegal then

[Rattler]

Originally Posted by nogaromill998

.....the rules also state :
Wheels including diameter and rim width must remain as originally produced by Ducati since 1992 for the 600/620 bikes.
Front wheel 17” X 3.5”, Rear Wheel 17” X 4.5
but we all know 748/916 wheels are used......I think some common sense needs to prevail here.

But that is cheating then, you would be well within your rights to protest those that run 916 type wheels and your protest would be upheld.

Or are you saying its OK to cheat because others have done it?

[nogaromill998]

Not at all Tim, cheating should not be allowed. My understanding of the rules is that no mods are allowed to the crank, and as far as I can see balancing a crank is merely good practice, not cheating in anyway, as I have already said, it is absolutely bog standard in everyway, with no performance enhancement inferred or gained from just putting the thing together properly. I handed them a crank, 3 sets of rods and pistons and gudgeon pins, circlips piston rings etc and told them to balance the thing.

[Rattler]

Originally Posted by nogaromill998

Not at all Tim, cheating should not be allowed. My understanding of the rules is that no mods are allowed to the crank, and as far as I can see balancing a crank is merely good practice, not cheating in anyway, as I have already said, it is absolutely bog standard in everyway, with no performance enhancement inferred or gained from just putting the thing together properly. I handed them a crank, 3 sets of rods and pistons and gudgeon pins, circlips piston rings etc and told them to balance the thing.

No issues with the crank - but it sounds like Class B is the new Class A with a selection of engine parts available to create the best engine - nice work.

Part of the challenge and enjoyment for me of DD was creating and building a bike that was within the rules, but took advantage of any available advantages that could be had by applying the rules. Sounds like you've done that with the crank, by using OEM parts that best match (without any machining) to run as efficiently as possible.

My point was about the wheels, if riders are cheating (knowingly or otherwise) by using illegal wheels then they should be protested, or better still, a quiet word should be had with them to point out that they are outside of the rules if they don't run a 583 or 620 OEM wheels. Then they avoid getting protested (and paying out £s) and also avoid getting black-balled by the rest of the paddock.

Maybe its time to plan and run an early "this is what you can do to a DD bike and this is what you can't" session.

Or maybe as part of a FAQ list in the DD section?

Tim

[Lily]

Originally Posted by Rattler

No issues with the crank - but it sounds like Class B is the new Class A with a selection of engine parts available to create the best engine - nice work.

Part of the challenge and enjoyment for me of DD was creating and building a bike that was within the rules, but took advantage of any available advantages that could be had by applying the rules. Sounds like you've done that with the crank, by using OEM parts that best match (without any machining) to run as efficiently as possible.

My point was about the wheels, if riders are cheating (knowingly or otherwise) by using illegal wheels then they should be protested, or better still, a quiet word should be had with them to point out that they are outside of the rules if they don't run a 583 or 620 OEM wheels. Then they avoid getting protested (and paying out £s) and also avoid getting black-balled by the rest of the paddock.

Maybe its time to plan and run an early "this is what you can do to a DD bike and this is what you can't" session.

Or maybe as part of a FAQ list in the DD section?

Tim

ok... two questions..

how can you tell the difference in the wheels - is it obvious for numpties lke me?

second - I assume the wheel I got from you was kosher

[Rattler]

Originally Posted by Lily

ok... two questions..

how can you tell the difference in the wheels - is it obvious for numpties lke me?

second - I assume the wheel I got from you was kosher

I think its more of a 583 thing? But could be wrong. As the earlier wheels were a lot heavier than the later 620 Monster and Sport ones. I only ran 620 wheels on my 620 ( I don't know if the 916 type are any lighter than these anyway) - so the one I sold you is fine as its an original 620 wheel.

[nogaromill998]

As far as I am concerned I have no truck with cheating. As far as I am aware I have neither broken nor infringed any rules, neither have I gone against the spirit of DesmoDue. To harp on about keeping costs down is just nonsensical when you permit the use of plenty of non standard parts. EVERYTHING in my engine is standard, and within factory tolerance, as it was last year and will be next year. What I have had done is good assembly practice, no more no less.

[vespa]

Originally Posted by nogaromill998

Not at all Tim, cheating should not be allowed. My understanding of the rules is that no mods are allowed to the crank, and as far as I can see balancing a crank is merely good practice, not cheating in anyway, as I have already said, it is absolutely bog standard in everyway, with no performance enhancement inferred or gained from just putting the thing together properly. I handed them a crank, 3 sets of rods and pistons and gudgeon pins, circlips piston rings etc and told them to balance the thing.

That's what I understand. It's like putting balancing weights to the wheels then