Ducati Sporting Club UK > Model Specific - Discussion, Technical Problems and Help > General Motorcycles only > Plastic petrol tank expansion problem

[ducatiz]

It will be interesting to see how it's handled in UK and the rest of Europe.

The lawsuit was just finalized here (rather, the settlement) and the result is that Ducati will be "modifying" bikes to allow for the deformation rather than replacing tanks with something that prevents it. This means new mounts, shorter seats and in some cases, a smaller tank so it can expand without hitting anything.

The details of the settlement are here: http://www.girardgibbs.com/ducati-class-notice.pdf

Please note that this settlement affects US owners ONLY, no one else.

Despite my and others' efforts, we were unable to get Ducati to implement some sort of barrier coating as a solution. Here in the US there are epoxy-based coatings available which are designed for use with polyamide plastics such as PA6/Nylon6 and are impervious to fuel or water. Acerbis did some testing on one of them and found it delaminated during testing, but no indication was made of how the tank was prepped or how the solution was prepped. There are literally 100s of people now with coated tanks in the US, some with 2+ years of use and showing no problems.

One thing to note: if you're experiencing tank deformation, you should fully drain your tank, wash it out with a cleanser appropriate for fuel and plastic, and let it sit in a dry place for a few months. It will return to its original shape. When storing your bike, do not leave the tank FULL as you used to with your metal tanks, you should drain it.

The problem is water -- ethanol attracts water and then the combined stuff sinks in the fuel and puts it into contact with the fuel cel wall. Nylon6 absorbs water aggressively to up to 10% by volume.

Here is one company in the US that makes epoxies for polyamides (nylons). I am sure you can find something similar in old Blighty.
http://www.reltekllc.com/adhesives-for-nylon.html

The main issue is getting coverage. We mixed the epoxy with xylene to reduce it. Xylene is compatible with nylons and with adequate air supply, it just evaporates and doesn't affect the epoxy except to thin it during application. Two coats and you're done forever.

If you coat a tank that's had petrol in it without properly prepping -- completely rinsing out the fuel and drying it -- then it will not adhere properly. There are many water-based solvents on the market which are compatible with nylon and will handle the fuel.

[bradders]

Originally Posted by ducatiz

When storing your bike, do not leave the tank FULL as you used to with your metal tanks, you should drain it.

that's interesting, its what I have done with my 848.

[Cobbett]

I'm not one of those who's quick to diss the marque, but, with higher ethanol levels incoming as we read above, it's stupefying that they haven't got a grip on this. They're going to be looking at class actions and mass recalls if they're not careful.

[antonye]

We were discussing this last night at the Essex pub night, and it seems that my Hypermotard would be affected by this.

Thanks to the work by Steve in contacting the petrol companies to find out more about ethanol in the fuel (he's getting far too ahead of himself with only 7 posts!!) at least we know that using a fuel without ethanol in it will help to reduce this, if not stop it completely.

I've been lucky (!) enough to require filling the Hyper every day, so the chance of water ingress is much reduced, but I do store the bike over winter so draining the tank (read: going for a thrash until you run out of petrol ) sounds like a good plan before storage!

It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens here in the UK with this.

[Steve E]

LOL. Another two posts and I might even be able to do a track day ;-)

I've used Tesco Momentum 99 (advertised as having 5% ethanol) in my SC1000 and the tank has grown by 5-10mm but no other imperfections - so far. It's sickening though to know that it will get worse unless I take action now.

The remaining fuel companies have not written back to me so the best thing we can do right now is use Texaco Premium.

Really helpful advice ducatiz, thanks. I've just spoken to The Motorcycle Restoration Company in Essex and they seal 'loads of tanks' specifically for the reasons we are concerned about. Martin at MRC confirmed exactly what you said ducatiz, regarding preparation. Sounded like he had said it hundreds of times. £150 for a single coat and £205 if it needs a second coat + VAT. I feel sorry for the poor souls who have classic bikes with fiberglass tanks, he has some real sorry stories!

Might as well take my tank off this w/e and let it dry before taking it up to MRC. A distress purchase but I can't wait for Ducati to do something with more ethanol on the way soon.

[Steve E]

Just in, response from BP ...

Thank you for your email concerning the fuel sold by BP.

In most regions of the UK our Ultimate Unleaded dos not contain any Ethanol at present (South West UK excluded). This may of course change in the future as the specification allows up to 5%.

Our Regular grade gasoline does contain up to 5% bio ethanol in compliance with EN228 gasoline specification allowance in most regions of the UK.
All BP fuels, regular and BP Ultimate, contain additives which have cleaning and protection properties for the engine. BP Ultimate has been rigorously tested on a wide range of vehicles, covering thousands of miles, in various conditions. Its advanced formula offers a wide range of benefits including better fuel efficiency, more power, better responsiveness, and lower exhaust emissions, all of which gives long term benefit and value to the consumer and their vehicle.

BP does not supply Bio Ethanol as a fuel.

Thank you for taking the time to bring the matter to our attention and for allowing us the opportunity to respond to your concerns at this time.

Kind regards,

Retail Customer Care Team

Email: careline@bp.com
Telephone: 0800 402402
Fax: 0845 082 1706
Internet: www.bp.com

[bradders]

so BP Ultima or whatever it is then, long as you're not in Cornwall

[antonye]

Interesting that they do regional variations on fuel.
I would understand the Scottish Highlands getting something different to Cornwall, but not just the SW getting something different...

[ducatiz]

Originally Posted by Steve E

Really helpful advice ducatiz, thanks. I've just spoken to The Motorcycle Restoration Company in Essex and they seal 'loads of tanks' specifically for the reasons we are concerned about. Martin at MRC confirmed exactly what you said ducatiz, regarding preparation. Sounded like he had said it hundreds of times. £150 for a single coat and £205 if it needs a second coat + VAT. I feel sorry for the poor souls who have classic bikes with fiberglass tanks, he has some real sorry stories!

Might as well take my tank off this w/e and let it dry before taking it up to MRC. A distress purchase but I can't wait for Ducati to do something with more ethanol on the way soon.

I don't know that they will do anything more. Here in the states, they have taken the stance that the deformation is an acceptable variation in the performance of the part. That's my wording, but that's essentially it. Under the terms of the lawsuit, they'll only replace a tank that has significant deformation, and then only with a tank made of the same stuff.

I wonder what the folks at MRC are using for their coating since this is nylon and not fibreglass. It does not take adhesives well. There are epoxy formulations which are designed for it, but most of the traditional tank coatings will not permanently adhere (like any that are urethane based).

Your best option in my humble opinion is to use one of the epoxy formulations. Prep the tank well, which means dry completely, rinse with cleanser, dry again. And then double-coat using a proper reducer so it gets everywhere inside the tank.

I hope Ducati does something differently in Europe, maybe we in the states can benefit but as it is, the lawsuit did nothing that Ducati wasn't already doing (swapping tanks and modifying bikes).

[Steve E]

I found that MWC were recommended on the Caswells website as an approved user/provider of their tank liner product. I have read that Caswells has been used by Ducati owners in the USA but perhaps I need to read up more before selecting a lining product. A rock hard, glass like liner (like Caswells) doesn't quite fit with a tank that can expand and contract. Perhaps sealing the inside will stop the tank changing size?

After what has happened in the states I can't imagine we will fair any better here in the UK. Not good PR for Ducati. We really need a permanent fix for this problem.

For UK Ducati owners I have now had a very helpful response from ESSO ...

-----

Thank you for contactimg Esso Customer Care.
May I assure you that any queries received by Esso are taken most seriously
and followed up as appropriate.

Upon receipt of your e-mail I have contacted our Product Quality Advisor,
please see his comments below.

There is currently no mandatory requirement for renewable fuel (such as
ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol).
Esso super unleaded petrol (branded Esso Energy Supreme) is ethanol free
(except in Devon and Cornwall and shortly Teeside) and we have no intention
in the short or medium term to add ethanol to the majority of our Esso
Energy Supreme.

We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of
ethanol in petrol to use Esso Energy Supreme - providing they don't fill up
in Devon, Cornwall or Teeside.

The 5% limit on ethanol content was endorsed by the The Society of Motor
Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) - the trade body representing the UKs
Motor manufacturers.
They did not believe that E5 would cause any significant issues (that is
not the case with E10).
We are not aware of any issues with Rover derived engines in any make
whether it is TVR, Land Rover or Rovers themselves - as stated earlier E5
is largely the only unleaded available throughout the UK and billions of
litres have been used across the UK and Europe in every petrol engine type
and make.

The proportion of ethanol in 95 grade unleaded in the UK is expected to
increase to 10% in the next few years to meet increasing legislated
renewables content, bringing us into line with both France and Germany.
This level of Ethanol is known to have an adverse impact on fuel tank
sealing in a number of vehicles types, certainly there is discussion on the
various TVR forums on E10 compatibility. Perhaps this is the source of
concern - we reiterate E10 is not currently on sale in the UK as a standard
or super grade.

When E10 does become available, the Government has legislated that super
unleaded petrol must be available at least until 1st January 2014 with no
more than 5% ethanol content.
It remains to be seen whether the Government will decide to extend that
deadline, because the introduction of 10% ethanol in unleaded in the UK has
taken longer than originally envisaged.

Finally, you may be interested in the regulations relating to ethanol in
petrol.
The RTFO was amended in 2009 and is listed under The Renewable Transport
Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2009 Order 843
(http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...roduction/made).
This fulfils the requirements of the EU's Biofuels Directive of 8 May 2003
(http://ec.europa.eu/energy/res/legis...s/en_final.pdf),
and Directive 2009/28/EC of 23rd April 2009
(http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...16:0062:EN:PDF), which promoted the use of energy from renewable sources.

Yours sincerely,